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Double Bass German Bow Overhand For Fast String Crossing Passages?

CaseyVancouver

CaseyVancouver

Nov 4, 2012
2,475
5,995
#1
Do you, or have you seen anyone, play the German bow overhand for some passages?
I have not.

While looking at Quantum Bass Center for French bow surgical tubing, they made reference to using the tubing on German bow for overhand playing.
[This invalid link has been removed]

Overhand with a German bow is very hard for me to take seriously.
Quantum’s comment below, which caught my eye.

C3409DAF-E474-4799-8F7F-A989316A9D36.jpeg
 
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#3
Can't say I have. I can see that moving the overhand bow hold up the stick closer to the balance point would reduce the amount of effort and travel down to almost only using wrist and fingers to cross strings but the weight of your arm is more likely to bend the hair too much. This bow hold is a "trademark" of the strings in early music ensembles and may be more suitable for the repertoire and viol family (including the six- or seven-stringed Violone that I have never tried to play). I have also seen mentioned that the old-style Dragonetti curved bow suited this music because notes are often shorter and finished with a lift and that our sound could be too thick and heavy. Personally this old dog will stick to his Frenchie and play fast string crossing at the balance point with appropriately short strokes. Reversing the stroke directions if neccessary, eg for repeated fifths or octaves, pushes the hair down into the strings as you cross instead of throwing it off and keeps you in the heaviest part of the bow.
 
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#6
There is a growing number of players using "alsatian" bows - German bows that can held French style; or French bows with a deeper frog. I had one by Prochownik years ago (and vingo makes a similar model). Some the LA Phil players use these transitional bows made by Boris Fritsch; Carbow makes a cheaper version, that seems (I tried to get one) unavailable in North America: Invalid Link Removed

The tubing on a German bow may be the influence of Paul Ellison at Rice, who I think uses both French and German bows with great skill.
 

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#7
I can understand it working with a hybrid bow.
David Moore owns a Fritsch hybrid, but probably plays German in the Phil.

Possibly he picked up the Fritsch for his one on one instruction from Rabbath in Paris a few years back (?)

B375948B-F00C-474E-8283-A66AFE6994B7.jpeg
 
#9
I use both bow holds and use German bows because it is easier for both than the French. It works fine for most things, it gets more dicey near the frog, so heavy orchestra playing with a French hold on a German bow is going to be a bummer - that is likely what the hybrid bows address.
Still, if you have both holds down, there is a lot of times where a French hold is nicer. No really need for tubing, though.
 
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#12
CaseyVancouver said:
I played fast string crossings overhand with the German bow today.
Awkward with a curious unbalanced feeling.

Then the same thing underhand. No problem.
Again the same thing overhand with the French bow. No problem.

:)
Click to expand...
I am curious as to why we continuously focus on purity (of bow holding/ fingering etc.) as opposed to embracing that differences are what makes us individuals. Unless the question is around wanting to correct something?? Not wanting to single out your specific post, Casey, more of a general observation.
 
#13
Of course. PRACTICE as well as putting it into practice makes it feel pretty comfortable. A bow made to play one way or the other is going to work better for that purpose, but it can work fine. It is like you do either way for anything willy-nilly. You find certain things that work better and do that.
Since I settled on German bows, German is pretty much home base for me. What I like French better for:
1. Quick changes between pizz & arco
2. A very light, very fast tremelo
3. Extended long tones on the E string (or de-tuned E)

Things I use both for for slightly different results:
1. Spiccato
2. High harmonics

I do like my bows to be balanced with either hold.

CaseyVancouver said:
I played fast string crossings overhand with the German bow today.
Awkward with a curious unbalanced feeling.

Then the same thing underhand. No problem.
Again the same thing overhand with the French bow. No problem.

:)
Click to expand...
 
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#14
LouisF said:
There is a growing number of players using "alsatian" bows - German bows that can held French style; or French bows with a deeper frog. I had one by Prochownik years ago (and vingo makes a similar model). Some the LA Phil players use these transitional bows made by Boris Fritsch; Carbow makes a cheaper version, that seems (I tried to get one) unavailable in North America: Invalid Link Removed

The tubing on a German bow may be the influence of Paul Ellison at Rice, who I think uses both French and German bows with great skill.
Click to expand...
I wonder if that style legitimately developed in Alsace or if they just call it Alsatian because that area has been both French and German, much like the bow is a blend of both. I swear I saw a different term for that type of bow, I want to say Viennese but I don’t know why.
 
#17
damonsmith said:
Since I settled on German bows, German is pretty much home base for me. What I like French better for:
1. Quick changes between pizz & arco
Click to expand...

I am in no wise disagreeing, but when I was in college I switched from German to French and oddly, the only thing I think I'm not better at now than before was quick changes from pizz to arco. Somehow, those quick changes were fairly natural for me with German and even now, 20 years later, still a little awkward with French.

I have heard this complaint in the past from other German bow players, though, so there must be something awkward about how I do the switch with French that makes me somehow worse than usual at it.

Recently, I have been toying with German again. I would like to be able to switch hit, even if I'm not really planning to make the transition back.
 
#18
To expand on this:
The it is actually nicer to play a good jazz pizz while using the traditional "pizz hold" for the German, but since you drop it 90 degrees, it is just slower to change back and forth. With French, you just fold it into the hand and the bow stays horizontal (more or less) so the change is just much, much quicker.
In the opening of this video, I do both:



Mark_T said:
I am in no wise disagreeing, but when I was in college I switched from German to French and oddly, the only thing I think I'm not better at now than before was quick changes from pizz to arco. Somehow, those quick changes were fairly natural for me with German and even now, 20 years later, still a little awkward with French.

I have heard this complaint in the past from other German bow players, though, so there must be something awkward about how I do the switch with French that makes me somehow worse than usual at it.

Recently, I have been toying with German again. I would like to be able to switch hit, even if I'm not really planning to make the transition back.
Click to expand...
 
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#19
damonsmith said:
To expand on this:
The it is actually nicer to play a good jazz pizz while using the traditional "pizz hold" for the German, but since you drop it 90 degrees, it is just slower to change back and forth. With French, you just fold it into the hand and the bow stays horizontal (more or less) so the change is just much, much quicker.
In the opening of this video, I do both:
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing that video. I have been trying to turn the bow tip up, which is awkward. I'll fiddle around with it today when I have time to practice. Sounding good, by the way.
 

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