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Double Bass German bow Spiccato

E

ekspain

Feb 22, 2008
216
0
Europe
#1
Hey folks

I play french bow, and I'm picking up the german. I was wondering if anyone may have any tips...

One of the things I find the most challenging is spicatto. I working my way up the metrenome. So far I can play up to around 90 beats a minutes- 8ths.. I haven't really messed around with other rhythms yet as I'm just trying to get the basic spicatto..
And I can play that relatively even. Any tips on playing spicatto???

Any other german bow tips appreciated!

Thanks
 
#3
I am also a recent convert to German bow, and self taught on it up to this point.

Until I connect with a teacher, my M.O. when approaching a difficulty with German bow is to try to find a corollary between it and my French bow technique, which is pretty good (result of some good instruction).

On French bow, my spiccato technique consists of a kind of action/reaction for the down/up bows. The “conscious effort” is put into the down bow, while the up stroke is a more a result of the hand returning its original position. Kind of like snapping a towel. This while keeping the right hand loose, but applying the proper amount of pressure/release with the index finger to control the bounce. All this is done primarily in the lower third or quarter of the bow

Applied to German technique the “towel snap” becomes more of a sideways yo-yo motion, and the index finger becomes the thumb (my thumb is over the stick).

Still getting the kinks out, but its starting to come together.
 
#5
basspirate777 said:
This is a relatively uninformed question on my part; what does a good spiccato sound like? Is it a full bodied note and the technique simply makes it spiccato or...? it seems like my spicatto gets really airy sounding...i cant imagine that this is a good thing.
Click to expand...

the thing about spiccato is that you don't want it to only sound one way and inflexible. try to get a sharp, crisp attack, with lots of space in between the notes. then work on a brushy, less focused sound. then find everything in between. the right sound in a given situation will be determined by the music.
 
#7
I am recently practicing a lot of spiccato bowing. I don't want to start another topic. But are there any more tips on practicing (french bow) spiccato? It is hard to get a good sound and a decent speed.

Also: how do you know how to use spiccato or just normal staccato on the string bowing?

I have done only a little bit spiccato technique in the lessons that I have. And of course my teacher is not there when I practice alone so I am afraid I do something wrong when I practice.
 
#8
For me, the key for both French and German is to learn to relax into the string and let the bow do the work. For German, one way to learn this is to practice a detache very slowly, perhaps a bit more detached than normal with the bow coming off the string at the end of the stroke, e.g., 90 = half note. In order to have a smooth start to the detache, one must relax into the string. That same feeling of relaxing into the string is necessary for a spicatto in my opinion. Then you can speed up it up very slow. I find it best to use a closed note to practice at first and in particular the A at the heel on the D-string. Later you can work with scales. The lower strings may require a more on-the-string approach to get the string started. My two cents.
 
#9
I'm a fairly recent German to French convert. But for the past 2 weeks I've had my french bow in the shop getting repaired and rehaired, so it was time to break out the German. Let me first say that learning one bow will help you on your explorations of the other, knowing both well only furthers your vocabulary of sounds. There are somethings that German bows do better than French, and somethings that French does better than German. IMO French bow spiccato allows for a great deal of length that the German doesn't. German bow gives a great front to the note, but it is harder to get the length. Knowing all the shortcomings of both bows will allow you to be more informed of what you need to work on.

In a masterclass kind of forum at Peabody Jeff Weisner and Hal Robinson talked about this very question. One of the main points that I took out was how the differences between the bows physically translate to the difference in sound. German bows have, usually, a deeper camber than French bows, which gives the stick more bounce, almost too much bounce. French bows have a smaller camber and in order to bounce sufficiently, using completely flat hair on the string will allow the French to use all of what its got. German on the other hand gets off of the initial attack very quickly (the good front end to the note) but the length isn't there. So in order to get more length (and compensate for the short comings of german compared to french) it would make sense to turn the german bow slightly towards you, thus taking away some of the bounce that the high, deep camber gives. With French I have found that in order to get a better front end of the note, I have to come off the string more so than I would with German.

In Jeff Bradetich's technique book, he describes the different types of spiccato generally by using simple symbols and composers.
V = Mozart
U = Beethoven
( = Brahms (I couldn't find a saucer shape so flip it 90 degrees counter clockwise)
⨆ or ∐ = Strauss

Spiccato should be your Legato stroke, just lifted of the string. Legato is the mother stroke for everything. Work for consistency and experiment frequently.

Edit: really most of the technique between the 2 bows is transferable, and what isn't shows up in the sound and is readily available to be worked on. Sorry this really wasn't the OP's question, but I think I hit it somewhere in the response

Another edit: I practice spiccato by picking a 2 octave scale the starts on the E string. At a reasonable pace I start with 6 strokes on the same note and head up the scale and back down. Once I reach the starting note I do the same thing with groups of 5 on each note. So on and so forth till you're just playing a spicatto 2 octave scale. During this, I aim for a consistent sound from both down bows and up bows.
Another exercise I use is on a 1 octave scale of whatever. On the same note, you do 4 groups of four spiccato, then 5 groups of three, then 4 groups of four again but starting on an up bow then another 5 groups of three stating on an up bow. Then repeat on the next note. Time consuming, yes but great for working on consistency. Also scales in 3rds and 5ths and octaves are good to practice too.
 
#10
Les Fret said:
I am recently practicing a lot of spiccato bowing. I don't want to start another topic. But are there any more tips on practicing (french bow) spiccato? It is hard to get a good sound and a decent speed.

Also: how do you know how to use spiccato or just normal staccato on the string bowing?

I have done only a little bit spiccato technique in the lessons that I have. And of course my teacher is not there when I practice alone so I am afraid I do something wrong when I practice.
Click to expand...

really good questions. you need to form opinions about the music you are playing. they should be shaped by what your teachers and other great players tell you, but they need to come from you eventually. you need to deciede wether on or off the string makes sense, as well as the "shade" of spiccato (agressive with lots of bounce or leggiero and brushy or somewhere in between). for me, i find that an aggressive spiccato tends to be what you look for in beethoven or strauss excerpts (beethoven 5 trio or page 1 of don juan for example) whereas mozart or haydn you should go for the more leggiero sound generally. that's not a rule of course - the first fugue in beethoven 9 last mvt. should be a lighter bow stroke than the trio from 5 for example. there are mozart excerpts that really come to life when played with a "drier" stroke. if you care about this repertoire at all you will form these opinions as you work your way through it.

i think you should find the balance of practicing spiccato with experimentation and with muscle memory. you need to try different things to see how the sound will be affected (tempi, placement, part of bow, speed of bow, amount of hair, amount of bounce, etc.). you'll find things that never work in any situation and you'll find things that always work for a specific passage. then practice internalizing the feel of the spiccato that works with whatever passages you want to use it for. eventually you'll just go to it without having to think about it; you'll need a sound and your hands will just know how to get it. hope this helps!
 
#12
Square Bear said:
really good questions. you need to form opinions about the music you are playing. they should be shaped by what your teachers and other great players tell you, but they need to come from you eventually. you need to deciede wether on or off the string makes sense, as well as the "shade" of spiccato (agressive with lots of bounce or leggiero and brushy or somewhere in between). for me, i find that an aggressive spiccato tends to be what you look for in beethoven or strauss excerpts (beethoven 5 trio or page 1 of don juan for example) whereas mozart or haydn you should go for the more leggiero sound generally. that's not a rule of course - the first fugue in beethoven 9 last mvt. should be a lighter bow stroke than the trio from 5 for example. there are mozart excerpts that really come to life when played with a "drier" stroke. if you care about this repertoire at all you will form these opinions as you work your way through it.

i think you should find the balance of practicing spiccato with experimentation and with muscle memory. you need to try different things to see how the sound will be affected (tempi, placement, part of bow, speed of bow, amount of hair, amount of bounce, etc.). you'll find things that never work in any situation and you'll find things that always work for a specific passage. then practice internalizing the feel of the spiccato that works with whatever passages you want to use it for. eventually you'll just go to it without having to think about it; you'll need a sound and your hands will just know how to get it. hope this helps!
Click to expand...

Thanks, great tips! very useful

I think that getting your spiccato really tight and to have good control just takes more time and practice then most other bowing strokes.
 
#16
+10 for the Anderson videos

A phrase we hear alot is "into the string-" as stated before, spiccato is merely a legato stroke with space. Too many people waste time trying to make it a completely different animal...

Have you talked to your teacher about it? If (s)he can't produce a spiccato with the German, find a teacher who can. Tensing up your arm with incorrect technique is going to cause years of problems if you aren't careful.
 
#17
chicagodoubler said:
A phrase we hear alot is "into the string-" as stated before, spiccato is merely a legato stroke with space.
.
Click to expand...

I don't fully understand what you mean by this. Spiccato and legato bowing are the opposites for me. Whereas in legato you use the whole lenght of bow and on the string bowing and in spiccato you use a very small portion of the bow and of the string bowing.
 
#18
  1. it comes from the elbow, keep the elbow pumping
  2. wrist and fingers should not be locked
  3. wrist and fingers should not be overly loose
  4. wrist and fingers "track" and work as a shock absorbing system
  5. don't micro manage the stroke, sometimes people erroneously say that "you lift with the pinky" or "the thumb creates the stroke" etc....when you are playing fast you can't micro manage everything, the elbow generates the stoke, aside from that you need to figure out how the stroke "feels" so that you don't have to micro manage
  6. if you can't play "on the string" you can't play "off the string", in other words: say for example, you are practicing beethoven 5 trio, if you don't have sufficient bow technique to play it cleanly, with a beautiful round sound AND WITH A RELAXED NATURAL MOVEMENT "on the string", you can forget about "off the string"
 

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