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Getting a really punchy treble sound

#21
Everyone pointing you in the direction of mids is spot on! Low mids are "tighter" versions of bass frequencies and high mids are "tighter" versions of treble frequencies. Find the low mid freq that has the punch you want, then find the high mid freq with the "bite" you want and you're golden. The reason mids work so well for bass is that they are the 2nd, sometimes even 3rd, octave harmonics of the fundamental note you are playing which makes them more easily heard by the human ear and able to compete with a blaring guitar. It also frees up more headroom since ur not soaking up all your amp's power trying to pump out 60Hz- sine waves :). I personally use the 80Hz low pass on the input of my preamp to really clean up my bottom end and even more precisely tune it.
 
#27
thedane said:
OK - my take is going to be a little different, but I'm coming at it from a sound engineer's perspective.
Yes, you need a bigger amp and 4 or 8 10"s are probably better for that punch - but...

As Floyd Eye said - you need mids and low mids...not highs.
I say not highs because you're NEVER going to win that battle against that guitar tone except in moments when he's not playing.
On the records by the player's you listed - the mix engineer has the time and tricks to do A LOT of tone shaping that is rarely ever possible live or in rehearsals.
Remember YOU'VE got the lows in your corner that the guitar doesn't have - learn how to work them.
Personally - if I was mixing your band I'd probably be nearly eliminating all the highs off of your bass tone because they would very likely not be helping.
Plaing with a pick almost always helps - and once you're using a pick and working your mids, low mids, and lows - not only do often not need bright strings but could very well even benefit from flats. It worked in the 60's and at least half of the 70's against all those Marshalls.

You own the LOW...learn how to wield it like a hammer!
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^^^ This, but emphasizing that you can flaunt your beautiful upper mids and highs during moments the guitar is not playing. That's when they're most apparent on the recordings of your favorite bands.

Think of your tone as having two components. dial in your balls (low mids, around 80Hz to 250Hz) and then tune in your crunch (high mids, around 600Hz to 1kHz). Above 1kHz doesn't really do much except bring out unwanted pick and string noise.

As far as gear:
The 3 semi-parametric bands on some Eden heads are great for tuning in just the peaks you want and I find a Tech 21 Para Driver DI gives a good slight overdrive with no loss of lows and a great parametric mid control. Also if you're going for 4x10s, get two 2x10 cabs and stack them vertically. You will have way better side-to-side dispersion. A traditional square 4x10 cabinet really only sounds best if it's pointed right at you.

A wireless is nice too so you can go out in the audience and see what you're really giving the people. It won't be the same as what you hear on stage, guaranteed.

Then don't take it too seriously because you spend all that time and money getting your exact tone and then the sound guy just does his best at the mixing board to make you sound like a P bass with flats :rolleyes:

Opinions will vary but I'm extremely happy with my rig set up as described above. If I had to change anything it would probably be to go to EMG pickups.
 
#28
carvinbassplyr said:
Everyone pointing you in the direction of mids is spot on! Low mids are "tighter" versions of bass frequencies and high mids are "tighter" versions of treble frequencies. Find the low mid freq that has the punch you want, then find the high mid freq with the "bite" you want and you're golden. The reason mids work so well for bass is that they are the 2nd, sometimes even 3rd, octave harmonics of the fundamental note you are playing which makes them more easily heard by the human ear and able to compete with a blaring guitar. It also frees up more headroom since ur not soaking up all your amp's power trying to pump out 60Hz- sine waves :). I personally use the 80Hz low pass on the input of my preamp to really clean up my bottom end and even more precisely tune it.
Click to expand...

I would like to get the similar sound as the the guy who started the thread.
my rig is GK Fusion 550+Ampeg svt810e+ Fender P bass special.

what I want to know-can you clarify your advice on mids? my GK has low and high mids control, but what to do with bass and treble controls?

before this GK I have played Fender Bassman 100 and I REALLY liked its clean sound with superb bright highsI switched to GK because my old Fender cab lacked the low end.

so, how to make my GK be a bit more brighter but to maintain the punch?:)
 
#31
bassgod0dmw said:
+1

Which era of Mike's tone are you shooting for here? He used a Gibson G3 (super ballsy/aggressive sounding bass) going into an Ampeg SVT II-Pro on Dookie.

Duff uses a Fender Jazz Bass Special going into GK amps.

Right now, your amp is by far the weakest link. You're talking a 50w amp into a single 12" speaker. Just to be heard in a metal band I'd say you need a minimum of 300w going into 2X12's, 2X15's, 4X10's, etc.
Click to expand...

You can EQ all you want but if your guitarist even has a 50 watt amp and hes a wall of distortion, it sounds to me like a losing battle. And youre losing. I troed to keep up with a band when I first started playing with an Ampeg B50R, a 50 watt combo with a 12 inch woofer in it. I just about blew the thing out because I was constantly cranked and I was still not able to be heard. You can EQ all you want but I dont think its going to matter in the long of it really. Maybe Im wrong. Do you guys have a powerful PA? Maybe you could hook up to the PA or mic your cab to it? Either that or get a different rig ie. 300 to 500 watt head and maybe a 410/212/412 8 ohm cab. You shouldnt have any issues cutting through in the mix or being heard again. Good luck to you.
 
#32
elwuss said:
I would like to get the similar sound as the the guy who started the thread.
my rig is GK Fusion 550+Ampeg svt810e+ Fender P bass special.

what I want to know-can you clarify your advice on mids? my GK has low and high mids control, but what to do with bass and treble controls?

before this GK I have played Fender Bassman 100 and I REALLY liked its clean sound with superb bright highsI switched to GK because my old Fender cab lacked the low end.

so, how to make my GK be a bit more brighter but to maintain the punch?:)
Click to expand...


Try turning the contour all the way off and presence up to maybe 2 oclock. low and high mids and treble around 1 clock and the bass at noon. If you can, turn your tweeter volume up. And take any high cut switch you may have on that head and leave it dis-engaged. those are my thoughts.
 
#33
gregmon79 said:
Try turning the contour all the way off and presence up to maybe 2 oclock. low and high mids and treble around 1 clock and the bass at noon. If you can, turn your tweeter volume up. And take any high cut switch you may have on that head and leave it dis-engaged. those are my thoughts.
Click to expand...

This is all good advice. I've had limited exposure to GK stuff, but IME they are pretty bright heads straight out the gate. The only trouble you may run with that kind of preamp setup is the preset bass, low mid, high mid and treble freq values. If you like them and they can get the tone you're after, great! If not, you're stuck with them.
 
#34
Thanks for all the advice guys. As of now I'm playing around with my amp to see what it can do for me (And anyone who thinks bass is the same as guitar is a nut, I've never had this much trouble playing with tone on a guitar before). I realized I had the High Boost on, and when I turned it off and played with the mids a bit I found a really good tone with some high punch, a lot of low end rumble, and some real snarl that just makes it sound nasty. Once I get to practice and I'm able to turn the amp up really loud I think it'll sound pretty cool and still be able to cut through the guitar distortion.
 
#35
Another problem with an underpowered amp is that it teaches you to hit harder to compensate and that can lead to bad technique habits. You want to pound it when the music calls for it, not just because you can't hear yourself.
 
#36
More/bigger amplification!!!!! That entry level practice amp will NOT achieve what you are asking of it! Good chance you will fry it, as well. You might be able to find something like a cheap older Peavey TNT 15" combo. Maybe not the greatest, but built like a tank and head and shoulders over what you have now.
 
#37
Quite often the problems with bass lost in metal mixes is not the fault of the bass but of the guitars. If the guitar players are going for that "chunky" sound they are probably sitting right on your sonic turf by boosting their lows and low-mids. A great sounding solo guitar sound does not sound good in the context of a whole band in this case. See if you can get the guitar players to thin their sound a bit, suggest it for a couple songs. Boosting tons of frequencies everywhere is a losing battle.
 
#38
Treble is not what you want. Not to toot my own bass too hard, but here’s a link to a clip that will show you what a P bass will sound like with some strategic tone bumps – specifically, 400hz gives you ‘loud,’ 800hz gives you ‘nasty,’ 2k is about the right spot for most audible bass ‘treble.’

It’s the ~400hz that really make one punch through, though – although it sounds kinda irritating when you are solo’ed (hence why so many amps have a contour or notch switch – make it sound good so you’ll buy the amp!). Though I’m not a metal player, I was inspired somewhat by Geezer’s tone on Black Sabbath’s 13.

In any case, a Boss GEB7 pedal should help you a lot if you can’t afford an amp with more variable EQ.
 
#39
Floyd Eye said:
It also helps to remove the bass knob from the amp your guitar player is using.
Click to expand...

the last metal band I was in had that problem. One guitarist was using two amps. One of which was a 150 watt tube bass head!
After I got them to narrow it down to one 50 watt head each and we pulled their bass knobs back to at least 5 or 6, I could actually hear notes and play in tune!

But yeah, get a better amp. You may end up being able to cut through with treble using a 50 watt amp, but you will likely end up cooking the speaker to death in the process.
 
#40
bkbirge said:
Quite often the problems with bass lost in metal mixes is not the fault of the bass but of the guitars. If the guitar players are going for that "chunky" sound they are probably sitting right on your sonic turf by boosting their lows and low-mids. A great sounding solo guitar sound does not sound good in the context of a whole band in this case. See if you can get the guitar players to thin their sound a bit, suggest it for a couple songs. Boosting tons of frequencies everywhere is a losing battle.
Click to expand...
"Everything louder than everything else!"
 

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