Getting lost in tumbao/afro-cuban lines

[BassmanNate]

So I've started going through the Latin bass book. Started out ok but now I'm at track 4 and trying to anticipate the next chord is killing me. I can keep up if i rigidly follow along in the music but if i stumble at all, forget it. I can't find my place again because i tend to try to keep the root on 1.

Any tips here? Is it just a matter of working at it and listening lots until it just comes naturally? Listening, it sounds very natural to me but playing it feels very un natural.

 

[Spin Doctor]

So I've started going through the Latin bass book. Started out ok but now I'm at track 4 and trying to anticipate the next chord is killing me. I can keep up if i rigidly follow along in the music but if i stumble at all, forget it. I can't find my place again because i tend to try to keep the root on 1.

Any tips here? Is it just a matter of working at it and listening lots until it just comes naturally? Listening, it sounds very natural to me but playing it feels very un natural.

I don't have any answer for you, but I feel your pain. I have a tune, that I am supposed to play Tumbao style during the chorus, but I keep (apparently) putting the hits on the "and" of the beat instead of the "e" of the beat. I didn't realize I was doing it until my drummer informed me, lol. It was a case of my playing by "feel" instead of really paying attention to what I was doing. So I guess, awareness and practice will fix it.

 

[mambo4]

The anticipated downbeat in Cuban music certainly takes some getting used to.

In a pinch you can get away with resorting to a older style son montuno rhythm ( 1, 2&, 4)
instead of the more common anticipated downbeat of the tumbao (2&, 4)

The thing that truly crystallized my Cuban lines was learning the patterns of the other parts.
When you know what the congas, claves, timbales, and piano are doing,
and memorize how the bombo (the 2& ) and ponche (4) sounds against each of those rhythms
If becomes much easier to find your place in the ensemble.
So if you have access to congas or a piano -learn a bit of those parts.
Here is a great PDF by Victor Lopez with many examples.

One thing that confused me early on was the idea that the bass must always be "correct with the clave"
How could that be when the clave is a two bar pattern and the tumbao is just one bar?

then I realized what was meant:

It's the last 2 beats of the clave (ponche and bombo) that need to match up.
in between, you have room for interpretation ( and forgiveness )

A great exercise you can do anywhere is to simultaneously clap and sing the clave and the tumbao. I used to do this waiting at the bus stop. Clap a clave pattern, and sing the bombo/ponche beats over it. When that felt good, I'd switch to clapping ponche/bombo and singing the clave

beyond those rhythm cues, getting lost in a tune has the same approach as any style:
rote and repetition, memorizing the larger phrases and chunks of the form and the melody.

 

[mambo4]

I have a tune, that I am supposed to play Tumbao style during the chorus, but I keep (apparently) putting the hits on the "and" of the beat instead of the "e" of the beat.

Cuban rhythms are usually notated with nothing more granular than an 8th note.
So, unless your drummer is speaking in cut time (2/4) , that sounds wrong to me.

 

[kesslari]

@mambo4 That's great stuff. Thank you!

 

[Spin Doctor]

Cuban rhythms are usually notated with nothing more granular than an 8th note.
So, unless your drummer is speaking in cut time (2/4) , that sounds wrong to me.

It was just a general statement. He knew I was off, but he didn't get all theoretical at the time. But thanks for the info.

 

[mambo4]

To be honest, when I first started Salsa, I had the opposite problem:
My gringo rhythm experience wanted me to put the last note on the 4& instead of the 4.
Learning the percussion section parts trained that out of me.

 

[Ian Stewart]

The anticipated downbeat in Cuban music certainly takes some getting used to.

In a pinch you can get away with resorting to a older style son montuno rhythm ( 1, 2&, 4)
instead of the more common anticipated downbeat of the tumbao (2&, 4)

The thing that truly crystallized my Cuban lines was learning the patterns of the other parts.
When you know what the congas, claves, timbales, and piano are doing,
and memorize how the bombo (the 2& ) and ponche (4) sounds against each of those rhythms
If becomes much easier to find your place in the ensemble.
So if you have access to congas or a piano -learn a bit of those parts.
Here is a great PDF by Victor Lopez with many examples.

One thing that confused me early on was the idea that the bass must always be "correct with the clave"
How could that be when the clave is a two bar pattern and the tumbao is just one bar?

then I realized what was meant:
View attachment 2921307

It's the last 2 beats of the clave (ponche and bombo) that need to match up.
in between, you have room for interpretation ( and forgiveness )

A great exercise you can do anywhere is to simultaneously clap and sing the clave and the tumbao. I used to do this waiting at the bus stop. Clap a clave pattern, and sing the bombo/ponche beats over it. When that felt good, I'd switch to clapping ponche/bombo and singing the clave

beyond those rhythm cues, getting lost in a tune has the same approach as any style:
rote and repetition, memorizing the larger phrases and chunks of the form and the melody.

Man you said it perfectly! I couldn't have said it better myself! Literally 90% of the gigs I play here in NYC are Cuban, salsa, latin-jazz etc. I totally agree that knowing the parts of the other instruments, as well as many tunes in the genre as possible, is key to developing rhythmic confidence in this music. It takes time and repetition, just like any other skill.

 

[JimK]

So I've started going through the Latin bass book. Started out ok but now I'm at track 4 and trying to anticipate the next chord is killing me. I can keep up if i rigidly follow along in the music but if i stumble at all, forget it. I can't find my place again because i tend to try to keep the root on 1.

Any tips here? Is it just a matter of working at it and listening lots until it just comes naturally? Listening, it sounds very natural to me but playing it feels very unnatural.

COUNT...

And, if you're like me, you will have to unlearn playing a Note on "1".
Really learn to feel the Tumbao of "& of 2" & "4". No "1"...you better know where it is, however!
|(1)--&--4-|--&--4-| etc

I used a drum machine & made an effort to play 'grooves' on anything/everything but the Downbeats.

I also used the drum machine to ingrain the various Claves.
Use your hands to tap out the Clave; one hand does the Pulse (1 & 3), the other hand does the Clave.
One (1) such example (1/8th Note feel = 1&2&3&4&)-
LH |1---3---|1---3---|
RH |1--&--4-|--2-3---|

Together...sounds like this-
|1--&3-4-|1-2-3---|

 

[JRA]

Is it just a matter of working at it

yes!

and take mambo4 's advice! good show mambo4!

 

[BassmanNate]

Thanks for all the advice. I suspected it would be beneficial to really learn the clave part first. My trouble is probably not helped by the fact that I just spent several weeks working on walking bass and funk.

 

[MrLenny1]

Repetition.

 

[JimK]

My trouble is probably not helped by the fact that I just spent several weeks working on walking bass and funk.

Probably.
Afro-Cuban musicians may think 'more like a drummer' than the rest of us into other things.
That Tumbao on the "& of 2" & "4"...the bass is approximating a drum/percussion instrument.

Ever see Get On Up (the James Brown biopic)?
One scene Brown asks his band "...what instrument are you playing"?
Guitar, sax, bass, whatever...the answer had better been "A drum, Mr. Brown".

 

[Rev J]

What I've found beneficial in learning Afro Cuban types of grooves is programming a clave into my drum machine then rather than trying to lock the line in with the click I will lock in with the clave. One I feel like I have it locked I will try it with a drum pattern.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[BassChuck]

The problem I had when I started working on the Latin Bass Book was, I couldn't keep up with the tempos so I just played the parts alone. That was OK, but I realized that I was adding or subtracting time from measure every now and then. So I got the old metronome out and set it to a different sound on the downbeat and then worked through the parts with that thing clicking away. It really helped. Once I got the feel of the rhythm, it got easier. But no one is going to convince me that Cuban music is easy. Lot's of props to those guys.