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Getting the Facts about Ski Jumps
- Thread starter Turnaround
- Start date
So, I can have the isolated pieces of sandpaper at the heel with no long term issues?
I suppose in the long term the paper in the sandpaper might degrade and that might cause an issue. But in terms of a ski jump a long term shim will not cause it.
The paper will likely compress over time. A piece of veneer, which you can sand to taper it if you want, is a better choice.
Veneer too can compress over time. I can compress it in as little as two seconds. Neither sandpaper nor veneer are unsuitable for a shim though. And both are easily replaceable if needed.
I'm a fan of the always tasteful options of a business card or recycling part of a beer can sidewall. Aluminum isn't going to compress, and it's thin enough and easy to shape.
Thought I'd get some input from this thread about my bass. I'm having trouble with not being able to get the action as low as I'd like without buzzing or choking out above the 14th (or so) fret.
So I've measured the distance between the top of each and fret and the string. I held the string at the first and last frets to use as a straightedge and there's definitely a reasonable level of error in this data; hopefully there's still enough information to help towards some kind of diagnosis. The neck currently has quite a lot of relief set as you can see (I don't know if this would affect the results).
I also measured the height of the frets off the board and there weren't any notable outliers in terms of height. So is this indicative of a ski jump or a different issue?
Thanks all
So I've measured the distance between the top of each and fret and the string. I held the string at the first and last frets to use as a straightedge and there's definitely a reasonable level of error in this data; hopefully there's still enough information to help towards some kind of diagnosis. The neck currently has quite a lot of relief set as you can see (I don't know if this would affect the results).
I also measured the height of the frets off the board and there weren't any notable outliers in terms of height. So is this indicative of a ski jump or a different issue?
Thanks all
Too much neck relief will cause a bass to fret out or choke up high. Try setting the relief at around .012 and string height at the last fret at 5/64th and see if that gets rid of the issue.
To recap on this, what's the Pro approach to "repairing" classic Fender neck ski jump. Is there any sure-fire repair short of fret leveling in some "fall away", yanking the frets and leveling the board, or some kind of heat treatment. If that's already been conclusively answered in this thread, forgive my laziness not re-reading the whole thread to find it.
Here I've superimposed an ideal relief curve (green line) over your relief graph. You can see that your curve follows the ideal more or less up to the 14th fret. Then there is a kink and the curve bends in the opposite direction. That looks like a classic ski jump.
You covered the options. I am skeptical of heat treatment as a long-term solution, but some seems to have had success. If the ski jump is mild, it can be addressed by trimming the frets. If more severe the frretboard will need to be levelled.
It's not too much relief that causes it to choke in the upper frets, it's the bridge being too low. If you have too much relief you may try to lower the bridge to get a decent clearance at the 12th fret, but in doing so you lower it to the point that there is too little clearance in the second octave.
Thanks for all the responses
Well I've straightened the neck out a bit, it's .015" at 7th fret when the string is held at the first and last frets. Lowering the action at the 12th fret to 5/64" (I realise you said at the last fret, 60bass, but 5/64" at the 12th is what I normally aim at when setting my basses up) I'm in a better situation, but still significant buzzing particularly on the A and D string for whatever reason and the A string chokes out quite badly on the 15th-17th fret.
If I'm in a classic ski jump situation do people think I can remedy this with a fret level (and perhaps some fall away in the upper frets)?
edit: And thank you very much Turnaround for overlaying that curve; that's handy to see
Well I've straightened the neck out a bit, it's .015" at 7th fret when the string is held at the first and last frets. Lowering the action at the 12th fret to 5/64" (I realise you said at the last fret, 60bass, but 5/64" at the 12th is what I normally aim at when setting my basses up) I'm in a better situation, but still significant buzzing particularly on the A and D string for whatever reason and the A string chokes out quite badly on the 15th-17th fret.
If I'm in a classic ski jump situation do people think I can remedy this with a fret level (and perhaps some fall away in the upper frets)?
edit: And thank you very much Turnaround for overlaying that curve; that's handy to see
Fret at the first fret and the fret where the neck meets the body, not the last fret. The ski jump is impairing your setup, you need to take it out of the equation because there is no adjustment you can make that will affect it. Adjust the neck so that there is 12 to 15 thou at the 7th fret fretting when fretting as I said. Then if you still have buzz in the upper frets straighten the neck a bit further and raise the saddles to get your desired clearance at the 12th fret. It's back and forth between relief and saddle height to find the best compromise. As you do the back and forth, check that the bass still plays well in the first octave. The no-compromise solution means either a fret levelling or a fretboard replaning.
To see if it's feasible to do a fret levelling, place a straightedge from the last fret to the 14th fret. Look for a gap somewhere between 14th and last fret. That gap is the amount you will need to remove from the upper frets to get them on the right plane. If that gap is less than half of the height of the last fret from fretboard surface to the crown of the fret, you can likely fix the problem with a fret dress. If the gap is more than that you need to have the fretboard re-planed.
Well so the ski jump cause could actually cause some slight distortion of a few thousands of an inch at the heel. The neck can experience a pivoting force at the head side of the heel bolts. Add in the thick relatively soft paint in the neck saddle and more room for warpage to set in is made.
I may try removing the thick soft paint at the neck saddle and replace it with an equal thickness of stainless steel shim.
However, the thick soft paint may serve to decouple vibration and affect some things like resonant points. Once the paint has been removed the tonal quality may never be the same if removing it has effect.
I may try removing the thick soft paint at the neck saddle and replace it with an equal thickness of stainless steel shim.
However, the thick soft paint may serve to decouple vibration and affect some things like resonant points. Once the paint has been removed the tonal quality may never be the same if removing it has effect.
Turnaround, I have a couple of questions that I was hoping you might clarify. Before I get into them, however, I want to thank you (and all others who have contributed to this thread). Understanding the actual facts and working together as a community goes a long way towards making things better for all bassists.
So in your experience can you tell us if the wood in most necks eventually achieve a point of stability after being compressed by string pressure? Or does the ski jump effect typically continue to worsen over time? Or is it a case by case basis that is dependent on the wood of each neck?
Are some types of wood less prone to incurring a ski jump?
Also, we have talked a lot about the causes of the ski jump, but we haven't delved much into what it takes to fix a mild to moderate ski jump. Would you be able to relate the most common remedies and at what point a neck is considered unfixable?
So in your experience can you tell us if the wood in most necks eventually achieve a point of stability after being compressed by string pressure? Or does the ski jump effect typically continue to worsen over time? Or is it a case by case basis that is dependent on the wood of each neck?
Are some types of wood less prone to incurring a ski jump?
Also, we have talked a lot about the causes of the ski jump, but we haven't delved much into what it takes to fix a mild to moderate ski jump. Would you be able to relate the most common remedies and at what point a neck is considered unfixable?
First, thanks for your comments.
These are very good questions and they deserve a considered and in-depth answer. I am happy to do that, but not right this moment. I think I will need to create some illustrations to help with the descriptions. Things are quite busy the moment, but hang on - I will get to it.
I'd be very interested to read about Fix procedures. I have a beater 93' MIM P-Bass I refinned for my son, but it's nearly unplayable above the 12th due to what appears to be classic Fender ski jump. From what I've read, filing in a little "fall-away" may work, but I don't know how to evaluate what's fixable, and what's too far gone to be worth the trouble.
