Getting them harmonics before HPF

[shinju]

I like to play a lot of melodic bass lines, fretless semiacustic, small ensembles. No need for huge bass sound. So I like to tame my low end, maybe -6dB per octave from 130Hz down. My Godin Ultra A4 with flatwounds give a nice low end, so I'd like to get the harmonics from the low end before equalization. Now I get it using RNDI before my Quad Cortex.

Any ideas how I could achieve the same in a small pedalboard setting? RNDI, Noble, etc give beautiful harmonics, but they are built with the philosophy that they are the last thing before amp or FOH. And I'd like to get the harmonics as the very first thing when the signal enters the pedalboard, before EQing away the excess low end.

Another question:
Is there a HPF pedal that could give me -6dB per octave from 130Hz down?

 

[shinju]

Yet anohter idea:
Wouldn't it be brilliant if an active bass would have a built in HPF knob?

 

[shinju]

Here is an idea that I had for getting the harmonics before EQ. It just feels overly complicated to need to supply the RNDI-M with phantom within the pedalboard setting... with xlr cables sticking out all over the place.

Picture from pedalplayground.com

 

[Jack]

Surely there's a million ways to get harmonics from the quad cortex? If none of them are up to your standards then please capture the rndi for us both.

 

[eniac]

Plucking hand position and technique play a big role.

 

[shinju]

Surely there's a million ways to get harmonics from the quad cortex? If none of them are up to your standards then please capture the rndi for us both.

QC is great! I’m just looking for a small analogue pedalboard (pedaltrain nano size) solution.

 

[Jack]

Sorry I somehow missed that. I think the issue that you're going to have is that the gear you've mentioned is super subtle. I mean, there's the Darkglass harmonic booster for instance, but it's not really doing the same thing as the noble. Or actually it is but it's doing it about 500% more. What about those lightning boy transformers? They always seemed a bit snake oil to me but people swear by them.

 

[Karl Kaminski]

...My Godin Ultra A4 with flatwounds give a nice low end, so I'd like to get the harmonics from the low end before equalization. Now I get it using RNDI before my Quad Cortex.

HI, Im somewhat similar. Im curious what you mean by "I get it using RNDI before my Quad Cortex"? (Im also using a RNDI) Could you describe this?

Any ideas how I could achieve the same in a small pedalboard setting? RNDI, Noble, etc give beautiful harmonics, but they are built with the philosophy that they are the last thing before amp or FOH. And I'd like to get the harmonics as the very first thing when the signal enters the pedalboard, before EQing away the excess low end.

you might experiment with FXs like Aphex Xciter at front of chain, then a HPF

Another question:
Is there a HPF pedal that could give me -6dB per octave from 130Hz down?

Yet anohter idea:
Wouldn't it be brilliant if an active bass would have a built in HPF knob?

take a look at fDeck's HPF. If you're a DYIer you could mod it and even add it 'onboard'



please post your findings. thanks

 

[Passinwind]

Yet anohter idea:
Wouldn't it be brilliant if an active bass would have a built in HPF knob?

You could start with the MusicMan thee bander that has a second order HPF built in, for one.

While not exactly a first order response, the HPF in my open source preamp project can give a pretty gentle rolloff up at 130 Hz and not kill second and third order hamonics of the lower notes too badly until it rolls off harder another octave or so lower. If you tweak the bass control parameters correctly the overall effect can be more or less on point with what you’re looking for. I’d suggest moving the HPF to the end of the module chain if building the whole pedal as designed, or better yet building it as a standalone box and sticking it further toward the back of the signal chain. I’ve discussed that both in my long thread in the Pickups and Electronics forum, and in some of my DIY threads. Some of those builds had the expicit goal of preserving or even enhancing the lower order harmonic chain of low bass notes, which IMO and IME can work pretty well.

While my published design on GitHub is primarily meant for pedal usage, switching the opamps to something less current hungry such as OPA205/2205 or OPA145/2145 works quite well for onboard builds, FWIW.

Thread 'The Passinwind Open Source Preamp'

Dec 25, 2016

Disclaimer: For a while I've been wanting to put one or another of my DIY onboard preamp designs into an open source DIY oriented format that other TB'ers can build and readily tweak to their particular wants and needs. I've finally settled on a specific concept and am well into testing a few different versions. I'm about to send out a build kit to my first beta tester, and I will also have a few builds mounted in stompboxes and a bass or two at NAMM in a few weeks. I'm hoping to have v1.0 wrapped up a few weeks after the show, at which point I will release a board share at...

• Passinwind
• diy preamp
• Replies: 1,743
• Forum: Pickups & Electronics [BG]

• 
• 

GitHub - Passinwind/PW3B-LPF: Open Source Filter Preamps for Bass, Guitar, Mandolin, and other musical instruments

Open Source Filter Preamps for Bass, Guitar, Mandolin, and other musical instruments - Passinwind/PW3B-LPF

github.com

 

[adje]

Not sure what "harmonics" you mean. You have HPF at 130 Hz, so it can only be the harmonics that sound off the fundamental of your bottom E (around 40 Hz) and an octave above. To me it sounds like you need to simply dial down the low EQ, and use the HPF only to remove unwanted noise below 30 Hz (which piezos will probably add on a Godin).

 

[peterfrey2000]

I believe Jon Button (The Who) uses his Noble before his Quad Cortex, I believe he is supposed to have an upcoming article in Bass Magazine that includes his setup. I believe there are pictures on his Instagram account.

 

[TJ Spicer]

Drives are all about harmonics - I’ve been using the Nobles ODR as an almost invisible saturation. You could use something even more transparent (eq wise) for sure. Things like La2A style comps would add the same harmonic content. Anything with a transformer could add what you’re looking for too. I use the same thing all the time when I’m producing and mixing for artists adding some drive pre HPF. Works well!

 

[shinju]

@Karl Kaminski
I have the RNDI in the mic input of my Quad Cortex. My bass connected directly to the RNDI.

So I like the sound of my Godin with TI Jazz Flats very much with the bass EQ:d away a bit. Great sound for small ensemble jazz. However, since it's fretless, I'd like to hear the intonation especially in lower notes without changing the sound of anything else (for ex. by boosting mids or treble). Using RNDI right after bass gives me just that tiny bit of intonation detail in the low register so I love it. But the key is that I want to add the harmonic content of the lowest notes to the signal before I start EQing the low end away.

I'm not much of a DIYer so I'm looking for some ready pedals that fit a very small pedalboard.

I was thinking of using the ParaEq MKii Deluxe, it has the gentle adjustable roll off from 200hz... that might do the trick. But between that and my bass, if I could find a "standard" pedal that gives very subtle harmonics just like the RNDI but doensn't need phantom 48V to operate. I guess using Noble right after guitar might do the trick beautifully. I don't have a Noble though and it would be quite expensive.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I like to play a lot of melodic bass lines, fretless semiacustic, small ensembles. No need for huge bass sound. So I like to tame my low end, maybe -6dB per octave from 130Hz down. My Godin Ultra A4 with flatwounds give a nice low end, so I'd like to get the harmonics from the low end before equalization. Now I get it using RNDI before my Quad Cortex.

Any ideas how I could achieve the same in a small pedalboard setting? RNDI, Noble, etc give beautiful harmonics, but they are built with the philosophy that they are the last thing before amp or FOH. And I'd like to get the harmonics as the very first thing when the signal enters the pedalboard, before EQing away the excess low end.

Another question:
Is there a HPF pedal that could give me -6dB per octave from 130Hz down?

Just get a Broughton "always on" HPF (inexpensive, small footprint, variable filter) and put it first-in-line. It will tame the signal before it hits the peripherals downstream. Can't quote the specs off the top of my head but Josh knows what he's doing.

...or maybe I misunderstood the question.

Riis

 

[shinju]

Drives are all about harmonics - I’ve been using the Nobles ODR as an almost invisible saturation. You could use something even more transparent (eq wise) for sure. Things like La2A style comps would add the same harmonic content. Anything with a transformer could add what you’re looking for too. I use the same thing all the time when I’m producing and mixing for artists adding some drive pre HPF. Works well!

This Nobles ODR might be just what I'm looking for. I'll take a closer look at it. Thanks!

 

[shinju]

I also do some gigs with nylon string classical guitar, bossanova, etc. Finger picking so not much treble there. I love the clarity that the RNDI gives to the low end. Maybe I could use a small Nobels ODR + ParaEQ pedal for both nylon string guitar and bass.

So far I've been using the RNDI + XVive P1 (portable phantom power supply) between my bass or brazil guitar and the amp, using the amp EQ to tame excess low end, and I like sound. It would just be nice to have one small pedal with all that figured out.

 

[shinju]

Sorry I somehow missed that. I think the issue that you're going to have is that the gear you've mentioned is super subtle. I mean, there's the Darkglass harmonic booster for instance, but it's not really doing the same thing as the noble. Or actually it is but it's doing it about 500% more. What about those lightning boy transformers? They always seemed a bit snake oil to me but people swear by them.

I was trying to find where I could buy the Lightning Boy 2020 transformer. Sounds very interesting.

 

[TJ Spicer]

If you’re going to use the nobles, set the spectrum knob straight up the middle for no EQ. To the left it has reductive EQ at 2k and 300hz, to the right, boosts both those frequencies. Up the middle it’s neutral! There are lots of low gain drives and boosts that you could use in this way for harmonics.

The Neve-like pedals (broadcast and colour box) will probably get you more of that transformer harmonics vibe in the same way you’re accustomed to. Some thoughts/pedals that come to mind below with that more specific transformer vibe!

Hudson Broadcast, JHS Colour Box, Origin Effects RevivalDrive, Xotic pedals, Fairfield Barbershop, Effectrode LA-1A, Strymon Dec.

 

[smatanovic]

Alternatively the Sushi Box Finally is a tube based DI with a built in HPF, so harmonics + HPF in one package.

 

[FullumMusic]

Turning down the low shelf on an EQ would be a viable solution. You don't need to full-on filter out frequencies. You can just turn them down. I know TB is very quick to always recommend filters, especially HPFs for reducing low end. But HPFs and LPFs are kinda heavy-handed approaches, even a -6dB/Oct one, because they just keep cutting more and more across the spectrum. Yes, it's a gradual rolloff, but -6dB/Octave means across 1 octave the top of that octave has 4 times more power than the bottom of that octave.

If you have an EQ with a Low Shelf, you can just lower that so that the partials are more present than the fundamentals. It wouldn't be wrong to use a HPF. You could use a HPF to achieve a similar thing as lowering a Low Shelf. But filters are just that, filters. They're for removing frequencies; EQ bands are for adjusting frequency levels.

If you have an low shelf on your active bass, or you have an EQ with a low shelf, just use that. Even if the low band isn't a Shelf EQ, you can still just use that, imho.

----

That said, the Broughton Always On HPF is -12dB/Oct, sounds very natural, and can set the cutoff between 25Hz and 190Hz, and it's incredibly small. You can put it at the very beginning of your signal chain (after your tuning pedal), and adjust the cutoff freq however it suits your tone needs.