Give him up to the IRS. Tell them he has been making lots of money, and that he sneers at the IRS in conversations, stating "They'll never catch me, I'm too smart!" The IRS really likes people like that!
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Gig money split?
- Thread starter JamTwins
- Start date
I'm not normally a fan of bringing little disputes into the legal system, but in this case a big +1 to forcing this jerk's parents to decide *quickly* between doing the right thing or having this become a legal matter.
Beyond the money (small potatos, really), just walking away w/out correcting his theft from your girls reinforces his behaviour (and his parents' lack of ethics; gee, I wonder where he learned to be a greedy worm?).
Moreover, the slight hassle of going to small claims court would be worth it as a lesson to your girls not to be push-overs. I know I wouldn't want my daughter walking away from this without learning how to be a stronger advocate for herself.
If the equipment wwas purchased with band procedes then he needs to:
1. Sell the equipment and split the cash.
2. Buy out your daughters share.
You might have to sue the parents depending on the age of the son. They all sound like a bunch of money grubbing dirt bags. Most importantly get your daughters out of that band and into one where there is fairer treatment. If they want to perform they will get to that isn't that tough. Even crummy bands get to perform.
1. Sell the equipment and split the cash.
2. Buy out your daughters share.
You might have to sue the parents depending on the age of the son. They all sound like a bunch of money grubbing dirt bags. Most importantly get your daughters out of that band and into one where there is fairer treatment. If they want to perform they will get to that isn't that tough. Even crummy bands get to perform.
Sounds like they're trying to have it both ways:
either HE bought the PA, and is renting it, in which case HE's $1000 in the hole for the PA, and you need your share of the earnings (- PA rental, at say 10% of gig money)
OR
the band bought the PA, and the band is $1000 down, but your family owns 2/3 of the PA.
If the PA is worth that much (I recall you said the band had earned about $3000), offer to buy the PA (and associated debt) for $1, take on the debt, but get a killer PA to show for the work your girls put in.
As he's saying it the BAND has to pay for the purchase of the PA, and paying rental on it because he now owns it.
Can't have it both ways...
Ian
This guy is a loser, that is established, and as a parent of 2 daughters myself, you hate to see your kids getting ripped off. What no one has mentioned is that twin 15 girls playing bass & drums are a huge draw, and contribute greatly to stage presence. If he replaced them with 2 guys, his bookings would drop.
You can also be sure that no matter what happens with the band or how successful they get, he will continue to rip off your girls.
You can also be sure that no matter what happens with the band or how successful they get, he will continue to rip off your girls.
This would be a good candidate for court, but is it worth time, money, and hassle of going to court? Probably not. Just drop the whole thing and view it as a lesson learned.
What lesson is that? NEVER go into a gig without having the finances in writing first. The band needs to agree, before the first gig takes place, how everything will be split.
If this guy decides you owe him, for whatever goofy reasons he and his parents come up with, don't give them anything. If they want to go to court, so be it. They'll lose. The equipment issue was never agreed to. Your daughters weren't renting it. By default (as someone mentioned earlier), your daughters are entitled to an equal split of the money since a different split wasn't agreed to.
What lesson is that? NEVER go into a gig without having the finances in writing first. The band needs to agree, before the first gig takes place, how everything will be split.
If this guy decides you owe him, for whatever goofy reasons he and his parents come up with, don't give them anything. If they want to go to court, so be it. They'll lose. The equipment issue was never agreed to. Your daughters weren't renting it. By default (as someone mentioned earlier), your daughters are entitled to an equal split of the money since a different split wasn't agreed to.
Your daughters had the chance to play gigs, and are better known, they'll get another band and for sure they'll get better gigs than that little 4$$Ho13. It is this guy loss.
Jam Twins-
Live & learn, hopefully they'll remember this lesson without letting it sour their love of music and good nature. Your girls are probably 'the draw' for this band. They won't be out of work for long. I've been playing a long time and have only met a few guys who would try to pull something like this. If the kid claims the money is going towards equipment, then your girls should be part owners, and you'll want to get that in writing. You should be able to work something out with his parents. If not, move on and say a prayer for this poor kid. Someone this miserable is going to have a tough life.
Good Luck To You and the Twins!
Live & learn, hopefully they'll remember this lesson without letting it sour their love of music and good nature. Your girls are probably 'the draw' for this band. They won't be out of work for long. I've been playing a long time and have only met a few guys who would try to pull something like this. If the kid claims the money is going towards equipment, then your girls should be part owners, and you'll want to get that in writing. You should be able to work something out with his parents. If not, move on and say a prayer for this poor kid. Someone this miserable is going to have a tough life.
Good Luck To You and the Twins!
Hmm - I half own a 4K rig and we (the other half owner!) never charge the non PA owners in our band, apart from very occaisional repairs. This person sounds like a bit of a 'Not very nice person'. Get your girls out of this band - this kind of thing may end up putting them off for life which would be disasterous. Even if he offers them more, the very fact he has been so unreasonable @ the start tells me he'll do it again.
Take it easy
Jassthebass
Take it easy
Jassthebass
We decided the following back when we started getting decent pay for gigs (which still doesn't seem to hold a candle to the gigs your twins are getting):
First, expenses are taken out of the gig money - usually just gas, but sometimes we pay the sound man or a guest musician a flat fee.
The PA owner (me, incidentally) gets a full equal share (up to $50) for use of the PA. Much cheaper than rental, and allows the owner (again, me) to pay for upkeep - cables, repairs, etc - that help the entire band. If we use house PA, and only use our monitor system, I only take a half share (up to $25).
Thus, after expenses, we split the money 5 ways - one of each of three band members, one share for PA, and one share goes into the band account.
For what it's worth, if the remaining money after expenses is less than $50, it ALL goes back into the band account.
As for the situation at hand, I'd haul that guy into small claims court and demand a REAL explanation. Who, exactly, is "the band" $1000 in the hole to? Mom and Dad of Mr. Rip-em-off?
As some have already said, this situation goes one of two ways: Either "the band" has spent $3800 on a PA, and now should liquidate the gear, repay the debtors, and split the remaining monies... OR "the band" was renting the PA, in which case the young man was committing fraud by renting the PA to himself (at 100% of the gig pay) and reinvesting the money into his own gear.
If it is the latter, you should find out what it would cost to rent a comparable PA, subtract that from monies earned, split the remainder three ways, and sue him for that. The $1000 owed would be his sole responsibility.
As far as a split goes, since there was no initial agreement, the judge should default to a fair split, rather than a "rental" situation.
But these folks need to be taught something about the correct way to do business.
First, expenses are taken out of the gig money - usually just gas, but sometimes we pay the sound man or a guest musician a flat fee.
The PA owner (me, incidentally) gets a full equal share (up to $50) for use of the PA. Much cheaper than rental, and allows the owner (again, me) to pay for upkeep - cables, repairs, etc - that help the entire band. If we use house PA, and only use our monitor system, I only take a half share (up to $25).
Thus, after expenses, we split the money 5 ways - one of each of three band members, one share for PA, and one share goes into the band account.
For what it's worth, if the remaining money after expenses is less than $50, it ALL goes back into the band account.
As for the situation at hand, I'd haul that guy into small claims court and demand a REAL explanation. Who, exactly, is "the band" $1000 in the hole to? Mom and Dad of Mr. Rip-em-off?
As some have already said, this situation goes one of two ways: Either "the band" has spent $3800 on a PA, and now should liquidate the gear, repay the debtors, and split the remaining monies... OR "the band" was renting the PA, in which case the young man was committing fraud by renting the PA to himself (at 100% of the gig pay) and reinvesting the money into his own gear.
If it is the latter, you should find out what it would cost to rent a comparable PA, subtract that from monies earned, split the remainder three ways, and sue him for that. The $1000 owed would be his sole responsibility.
As far as a split goes, since there was no initial agreement, the judge should default to a fair split, rather than a "rental" situation.
But these folks need to be taught something about the correct way to do business.
I'm sure Mr. PA is the most talented in the band (rolling eyes), but I've never been in that situation. As most have said here, they have their cake and want to eat it, too.
Your daughters, whether they were 15 or 35 - doesn't matter, are either hired help or band members. As band members, they would have a say into how the band is run in all aspects. They didn't buy the PA, Mr. Wonderful and his parents did. They didn't ask for a cut, nor is it your girls' responsibility to pay for it. If they had all put in equally for the cost of the PA, different story.
Sadly, it sounds like either walking away or legal action would be your only recourse if they keep insisting you owe them money. What a joke. Don't let it get your daughters down; unfortunately, there are creeps everywhere in the music world who do this type of thing later in life (and it has nothing to do with male or female).
Tipping off the IRS would be great if they've made $2800, they've never seen a dime, and all of a sudden they're asked to pay money.
For fun, you could ask Mr. Wonderful where in writing his daughters agreed to the whole 48.5 cents/mile, renting the PA. I doubt they even have such a verbal contract.
Judge Judy here you come!
Your daughters, whether they were 15 or 35 - doesn't matter, are either hired help or band members. As band members, they would have a say into how the band is run in all aspects. They didn't buy the PA, Mr. Wonderful and his parents did. They didn't ask for a cut, nor is it your girls' responsibility to pay for it. If they had all put in equally for the cost of the PA, different story.
Sadly, it sounds like either walking away or legal action would be your only recourse if they keep insisting you owe them money. What a joke. Don't let it get your daughters down; unfortunately, there are creeps everywhere in the music world who do this type of thing later in life (and it has nothing to do with male or female).
Tipping off the IRS would be great if they've made $2800, they've never seen a dime, and all of a sudden they're asked to pay money.
For fun, you could ask Mr. Wonderful where in writing his daughters agreed to the whole 48.5 cents/mile, renting the PA. I doubt they even have such a verbal contract.
Judge Judy here you come!
Look, get away from these people as soon as possible!!! They're mental. Have no further contact with them at all. They have no clue what they're doing business-wise if they think there's a chance in hell a court would ever side with them. Plus anyone who would take advantage of teenagers like that are jerks that you'd be well rid of.
Consider it a lesson learned, write off the money they earned, and do not allow your girls to do gigs with him under any circumstances. He's a scammer and he's got his parents to play along with it.
Consider it a lesson learned, write off the money they earned, and do not allow your girls to do gigs with him under any circumstances. He's a scammer and he's got his parents to play along with it.
Walking away from that jerk is the best thing your daughters did, and the hopefully they learned from this rotten experience. Tell them don't look back.
I gaurantee you the reason that band was getting all those well paying gigs was because of your girls...a talented female rythm section will get the attention. The jerk seemed to not notice that small detail, and he won't be getting gigs like that for quite a while. What kind of music were they playing? Covers or original tunes?
Your girls need to start their own band.
-Mike
I gaurantee you the reason that band was getting all those well paying gigs was because of your girls...a talented female rythm section will get the attention. The jerk seemed to not notice that small detail, and he won't be getting gigs like that for quite a while. What kind of music were they playing? Covers or original tunes?
Your girls need to start their own band.
-Mike
Since when does the split of band income depend on how expensive your own equipment is? The closest to that is bands who take a percentage of what they earn and put it into a band fund for buying band-specific gear (or studio fees, etc.) NOT personal gear.
Usually bands will charge extra if they have to bring their own PA to a gig (around where I live bands charge an extra $100 usually), and I can see that money going to the person who has to lug around the PA.
Bottom line is, he's ripping your daughters off big time.
How is the band business set up? As a sole proprietorship, or a partnership? Did he do contracts for the gigs? It is crucial that the band is set up and run as a legal business. Otherwise, bands are usually legally assumed to be a partnership between the band members, in which case a band member could, for example, buy some expensive gear "on the band's tab". It's just not a great way to setup a band.
Anyway, just get them out of that situation.
Usually bands will charge extra if they have to bring their own PA to a gig (around where I live bands charge an extra $100 usually), and I can see that money going to the person who has to lug around the PA.
Bottom line is, he's ripping your daughters off big time.
How is the band business set up? As a sole proprietorship, or a partnership? Did he do contracts for the gigs? It is crucial that the band is set up and run as a legal business. Otherwise, bands are usually legally assumed to be a partnership between the band members, in which case a band member could, for example, buy some expensive gear "on the band's tab". It's just not a great way to setup a band.
Anyway, just get them out of that situation.
Boy, you guys live in a dream world with this equal share stuff. Though the guy is obviously a skeeve, I absolutely think he should make a good bit more money than the girls. It's his PA and he booked the gigs. If I book a gig and I ask you to play it, I will tell you how much you're getting, and what I make is immaterial to what you make. And if you demand to make as much as me, I will just call the next guy on the list.
Now if it's an all-for-one band thing, there's usually one or two band members who emerge as the guys who do more than anyone else. If you're a guy who just shows up and plays and you raise a stink about the ones doing the hard work wanting more money, you're being unfair.
Now if it's an all-for-one band thing, there's usually one or two band members who emerge as the guys who do more than anyone else. If you're a guy who just shows up and plays and you raise a stink about the ones doing the hard work wanting more money, you're being unfair.
if its his PA and not the bands then your girls should get an equal share in the profit that the band is making, also +1 to the idea of charging extra for having to bring your own PA, then say that the extra money for that he can have for the PA but the rest if a fair split UNTILL the money made from charging extra was enough for paying off the PA, then start splitting the extra for the PA between them all.
so charge extra, split it all with the extra going to the PA, when the PA is paid off, split it ALL
so charge extra, split it all with the extra going to the PA, when the PA is paid off, split it ALL
People get paid whatever they agree to accept. This guy wants to keep all of the money and gear for himself. (Surprise!)
Pretty much like any situation, you can either accept it or demand more and leave if your demands are not met.
Having read the rest of what this guy has done, I'd say he's not trustworthy and the twins are better off finding someone else to play with, either as hired musicians making whatever the boss pays or else as equal members of band.
And yes, some bands do things with equality, even for the lowly bass player.
Pretty much like any situation, you can either accept it or demand more and leave if your demands are not met.
Having read the rest of what this guy has done, I'd say he's not trustworthy and the twins are better off finding someone else to play with, either as hired musicians making whatever the boss pays or else as equal members of band.
And yes, some bands do things with equality, even for the lowly bass player.
Lots of good advice here. In addition, in case someone hasn't mentioned it- at this stage of the game, stay away from joint ownership of gear. Now and in the future. It's never a good idea, and can cause real problems.
Near as I can figure this kid either doesn't have a clue about the business, or perhaps comes from a family of grifters.
Also, just in case you haven't realized it, twin daughters in a rhythm section could be a huge draw and if they can really play well, THEY could be in the drivers seat.
JKT
Near as I can figure this kid either doesn't have a clue about the business, or perhaps comes from a family of grifters.
Also, just in case you haven't realized it, twin daughters in a rhythm section could be a huge draw and if they can really play well, THEY could be in the drivers seat.
JKT
I suppose it depends how desperate you are for money, but one of my primary objectives is to avoid doctors and lawyers.
I say cut and run. Let it go. Move on to the next gig. Learn the lesson, and avoid "special people," like Mr PA in the future.
Good luck!
I say cut and run. Let it go. Move on to the next gig. Learn the lesson, and avoid "special people," like Mr PA in the future.
Good luck!
