• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Go Fourth ...

M

mr mastodon

May 31, 2009
274
2
Louisville, KY
#1
So guys, I'm in a rut. I can play pretty well these days, but the thing is I find myself going back to my same old tricks when it comes to a tune. For example, I'm playing along with "Minority" on a Bill Evans record at the moment. On the chart it has:

Bb-7....Eb7......Ab-7...... Db7
/ / / / | / / / / | / / / / | / / / / |

Whenever I see these changes I automatically play the same line over each chord though (R-3-5-#4). Then that goes into the fourth/next root It's like force of habit. Any suggestions on other cool ways to barrel through these chords?

I mean this doesn't really relate to just this song either. Most jazz seems to be fourth based (unless you're going in "Giant Steps" territory) so I'm going crazy!
 
#2
Start goofing off!! Sounds like you are in the privacy of your own home, so play some new notes, or the same old notes in a new order. Give yourself permission not to fully outline every change. If you want to play r-3-5 on the first bar, go ahead- but don't go chromatically down after that, go up through the sharp 5 instead- just to see what happens. You're going to be looking right at the third of the next chord for the next down beat. Play it twice and see what it means to you. Repete some notes, just to break the habitual patterns.
--------------Or----------------
Play through the changes with as many diatonic half notes as you can. See what happens starting on the 3rd and heading down. Then do it ascending instead. Do the same thing starting on other chord tones. Find out what your ear thinks of the options. Now do it with the half notes on two and four.
-----------Or--------------
Play a walking line using only two chord tones per bar. Neither one has to be the root, but both could be (in octaves) if you really want. See how many bars you can get through with it still sounding like the changes. Find out how many variations there really are with only two different pitches. When it sounds too redundant, play the line you're used to for a few bars.
-------------Or----------------
Play through the changes out of time by yourself. Play only four notes/bar, but with no meter whatsoever. Try and make it a melody, not a bassline. Totally free of pulse, but only four notes/change in your example. See what happens.
----------Or------------
You could tune in fifths. Poof! Instantly the same fingering yeilds many new and wonderful wrong notes.
 
#3
Try throwing some non harmonic tones or leading tones in there and really consider how all the chords break down. Using your non harmonic tones to lead into the b3 and b7 can be really hip. Also try to use rythms to your advantage. Are you playing these all on the down beats? Don't ruin your walk, but also keep in mind that it's ok to repeat notes.
 
#5
Chris Symer said:
Start goofing off!! Sounds like you are in the privacy of your own home, so play some new notes, or the same old notes in a new order. Give yourself permission not to fully outline every change. If you want to play r-3-5 on the first bar, go ahead- but don't go chromatically down after that, go up through the sharp 5 instead- just to see what happens. You're going to be looking right at the third of the next chord for the next down beat. Play it twice and see what it means to you. Repete some notes, just to break the habitual patterns.
--------------Or----------------
Play through the changes with as many diatonic half notes as you can. See what happens starting on the 3rd and heading down. Then do it ascending instead. Do the same thing starting on other chord tones. Find out what your ear thinks of the options. Now do it with the half notes on two and four.
-----------Or--------------
Play a walking line using only two chord tones per bar. Neither one has to be the root, but both could be (in octaves) if you really want. See how many bars you can get through with it still sounding like the changes. Find out how many variations there really are with only two different pitches. When it sounds too redundant, play the line you're used to for a few bars.
-------------Or----------------
Play through the changes out of time by yourself. Play only four notes/bar, but with no meter whatsoever. Try and make it a melody, not a bassline. Totally free of pulse, but only four notes/change in your example. See what happens.
----------Or------------
You could tune in fifths. Poof! Instantly the same fingering yeilds many new and wonderful wrong notes.
Click to expand...

+1.
'Atsa nice.
 
#6
There's been good advice discussed so far.

How about transcribing some lines that you like from the recording? You'd be working on your ear and learning new ways to navigate the changes.

I took a few lessons with James Cammack (Ahmad Jamal) who made me write out my own lines. He emphasized shaping the lines- making sure there was a smooth contour. It's easy to 'see' the shape of the line on staff paper. Rather than jump around from note to note randomly, there'd be a a nice flow between the changes. Remember that just because you're the bass player, you don't need to play the root on the first beat of each measure. Heck, you don't even have to play a chord tone there.

Ron Carter, Ray Brown, and Ed Friedland all have excellent books that discuss walking. Then there's Walking In The Footsteps of Paul Chambers, which is a collection of transcriptions. But, going through the effort of transcribing and creating lines by ear will be the most effective methods, IMHO.
 
#7
thanks a ton guys. and yeah, i need to do more transcribing. as of yet i've only transcribed a few choruses from "seven steps", a couple from a rendition of "after you've gone" and a few other songs. i have soooo much staff paper lined up (haha. pun).

so yeah. thanks a ton guys! definitely going to be working on that!
 
#9
I like the idea of thinking about shaping lines. I try not to think of II/Vs as individual chords (except when I want to, on purpose), but as larger sounds or shapes. If you can get away from thinking "Bb-7, Eb7, Ab-7, Db7...etc" and combine each II/V (at least sometimes) you might find yourself playing more musical lines. Also, as hinted before, study and practice your approach tones so you're getting to your chord tones from 1/2 steps above or below. Of course the goals is not to always play this way, but it can really get your lines sounding logical and forward-moving. Ultimately you should be able to play linear lines through multiple chords and keys. That's when it really gets interesting!
 
#10
There's been some great advice given already, but here's just a little thought...
There you are, in the band, playing this walking line. What else is happening? There may be a pianist comping some voicings of the changes and a drummer playing the time on his ride cymbol. Oh, yes, and there's a guy standing out front with a saxophone, or a trumpet, or a violin, or flute, or something, trying to make his solo work. I've played a bit of jazz trumpet (badly) and, when I was soloing, I'd close my eyes and listen for clues from instruments playing with me. I don't know if it's because I'm a bass player, but I'd always seem to focus on the bass line. It was easy to play if I got a sense of harmonic direction and a strong sense of the form. I think it's important to remember that the bass line is supposed to make the soloist sound good - give him strong clues where the harmony is going and give him a good time feel to stretch out over. I suspect that if you stop worrying too much about your lines sounding predictable and think more about what they're doing to the overall band sound and if they're supporting the soloist, you might see them in a different light.
 
#11
rprowse said:
I've played a bit of jazz trumpet (badly) and, when I was soloing, I'd close my eyes and listen for clues from instruments playing with me. I don't know if it's because I'm a bass player, but I'd always seem to focus on the bass line. It was easy to play if I got a sense of harmonic direction and a strong sense of the form. I think it's important to remember that the bass line is supposed to make the soloist sound good - give him strong clues where the harmony is going and give him a good time feel to stretch out over. I suspect that if you stop worrying too much about your lines sounding predictable and think more about what they're doing to the overall band sound and if they're supporting the soloist, you might see them in a different light.
Click to expand...

+1

Just a few days ago a friend of mine (who's been playing jazz for over half a century) was talking about a certain sense of musical generosity being a prerequisite for good jazz bass playing, for the very reasons you've just mentioned.
 
#12
I suggest that you don't play the bass.
Sit down at the piano and just noodle in each chord (including the scale underneath it). Then noodle through two chords, then three, etc. Make melodic phrases and lines. Find series of notes that sound pleasing to you. Make phrases that cover a series of chords. Spend some time doing this; there's alot to discover, and the bass can get in your way. When you start getting these sounds in your head, they'll start coming out in your bass playing.
 
#13
FMartin said:
Target your line to a different chord-tone than the root of the following chord, for example, the 3rd. For example, going from Bbm7 to Eb7: Bb.Bb.A.Ab.G., or Bb.A.Ab.F#.G.

My $0,01.
Click to expand...

Careful with this advice. The bassist's job in the band is to play chord roots. Walking third to third stealing the note the soloist is pointing to. Also, you'll begin to loose the sound of the changes.

We connect roots, the soloist connects 7ths and 3rds.
 
#14
mr mastodon said:
So guys, I'm in a rut. I can play pretty well these days, but the thing is I find myself going back to my same old tricks when it comes to a tune. For example, I'm playing along with "Minority" on a Bill Evans record at the moment. On the chart it has:

Bb-7....Eb7......Ab-7...... Db7
/ / / / | / / / / | / / / / | / / / / |

Whenever I see these changes I automatically play the same line over each chord though (R-3-5-#4). Then that goes into the fourth/next root It's like force of habit. Any suggestions on other cool ways to barrel through these chords?

I mean this doesn't really relate to just this song either. Most jazz seems to be fourth based (unless you're going in "Giant Steps" territory) so I'm going crazy!
Click to expand...
If you need too many ideas for dealing with ii/V/I/IV, try a copy of this, with the CD;

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#15
James Gibson said:
Careful with this advice. The bassist's job in the band is to play chord roots. Walking third to third stealing the note the soloist is pointing to. Also, you'll begin to loose the sound of the changes.

We connect roots, the soloist connects 7ths and 3rds.
Click to expand...

Chords can be implied in a number of ways. Our job is to make the soloist sound good not only to connect roots.
 
#18
James Gibson said:
In my opinion, the best way to help the soloist sound good is to stay away from the notes they're aiming for.
Click to expand...

ok but
1.a soloist is not always aiming for 3 and 7, and
2. A strong line that outlines changes is going to create a nice support for the soloist

I'm not advocating that we forget about roots or anything and of course you need to use your ears and your discretion at all times. All I'm saying is that no one needs to hit roots every downbeat and that playing a note like the 3rd in the bass is not going to weaken the sound of your line as long as you are truly hearing a strong line that reflects the sound of the changes.

In my opinion, the best way to break away from playing the same patterns over changes is to work on your hearing to the point where your lines are reflecting both the changes and what is going on around you in a given moment. Telling someone who is struggling to break away from root based patterns that playing roots is the way to go doesn't seem helpful. Someone else is looking for information and you might disagree with the path he is looking down, but that's his path and not yours. If you want to think mechanically and put a root on every downbeat by all means go ahead, but when someone is looking for information, telling them to do what they are looking to break away from isn't helpful.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back