Double Bass Going No-Pickup

[ctrlzjones]

I'd like to add a psychological factor to the matter of sound production: That is, everyboy plays better with a relaxed body and brain. It's tentative to play too hard (so many play too hard anyway) when there issues with "not being heard". And this is not always a matter of actual volumes in play, hence psychological ...

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I love playing no-amp when I have the opportunity to do so. My university colleague Gabe Evens and I even started a concert series we call "Faculty Chamber Jazz" twice a year for drummerless concerts where we also arrange works for members of the classical faculty to join us. It's been a real joy to play in that environment.

On the flip side, the modern environments that I haunt tend not to be quiet concert halls with a listening audience and no drummer, so I usually use an amp. Over the years, while I can't say I have developed a total MBOL sound, I have developed a sound that I feel is appropriate for the various ranges of loud environments that I encounter and have learned to enjoy playing in just about all of them.

 

[Don Hergert]

Just out of curiosity, do "true" orchestral double basses use amps (& pickups)? (And I'm not asking about "on the side" gigs, just the orchestral settings.)

 

[unbrokenchain]

Just out of curiosity, do "true" orchestral double basses use amps (& pickups)?

And you thought bluegrass players were the staunch no-amp traditionalists? I think in the orchestra if you want to turn up the bass you just add more bass players...

Really though, mics are definitely used in some orchestral settings, esp solos, but I doubt you'd see a piezo anywhere other than a tuner (correct me if I'm wrong there orch players)

Personally, I can get a "usable" sound for pizz with bassmax->eq->amp for the venues and genres I play, but the slower, more stripped down, and more arco the music has, the more I want a mic and not a piezo. I really have to squash the bassmax highs to be able to use it arco, and the sound bears little resemblance to the acoustic tone. Still usable if it's sitting with a bunch of other instruments, but not so good when really exposed. The realist-type pickup on my other bass works much better with the bow, though still not great. Adding a mic to my rig has done wonders for how much I like my amplified sound.

Mics are good, pickups are useful, but my opinion is that all acoustic instruments sound better, well.. acoustically.

 

[Selim]

That's something I'd never heard. It would be wonderful if there were pictures anywhere where Jimmy was playing with the Ampeg. I know Oscar Pettiford, Charles Mingus and Richard Davis were featured in Ampeg literature.

View attachment 3387495View attachment 3387497

When Mingus played my college in the mid 70s, my friend Cliff, the head of the student concert agency who brought him there (also the guy I shared an apartment with and where post concert Mingus band party transpired, sans Mingus), asked me if they could borrow my Ampeg B-15 and I said yes, I’d be honored if Mingus played thru my amp (!).

Well he played the whole night (using the wonderful (not) polytone pickup) just as loud as the B15 could go. I’m not even sure it was mic’ed — the venue was about the size of a basketball court.

When it came time for an encore and Mingus (surprisingly) obliged, the Ampeg just started howling (“no Mas!”).

So they didn’t play the encore.

I didn’t have the heart to try and recoup for the amp, and besides, it was the great Charles Mingus that totaled my amp.

Just reminiscing, thanks.

 

[Reiska]

I experimented today with my setup during a blues jam session with two buddies, one with a resonator guitar and another with a steel string acoustic. Only vocals were mic-ed thru a Fishman Loudbox mini. First half I played with plain guts on top of Spiro solos, medium - high action. For the second half I swapped the EA for Evah slaps and cranked the adjusters full turn. Both were loud enough, but the low end really woke up with the EP`s, suddenly there was this oomph that hadn`t been there before. I quess it had to do with the Spiros functioning mostly in allready busy frequency zone of the guitars, whereas EP`s emphasized something that was not around before. After the session I left the EP`s on and cranked the adjusters one more half turn.

 

[Peck_Time]

I’m still on the no-pickup train. 90% no amp too. A full set of guts makes no amp easier, and the fact that I play mostly standards.
I had a gig on the weekend where I did use my amp. 5 piece band playing for swing dancers in a hall with no PA.
I used my ev re20 into the focus and then the EA whizzy 12. Sounded great.
I could have done no amp, but the swing dancers like a bit of thumpy bass to set their tempos.

 

[Ric Vice]

Just for clarification here, When many folks talk about "no amp", in many instances they're still using a microphone into a PA, so there is still
frontline support and monitors, and in the case of Blue Grass and Folk there aren't any drums. So the last time I played with "No Amp, No Pickup, and No Microphone
was in highschool "stage band". Just my take, since that's splitting hairs.

 

[Ric Vice]

When Mingus played my college in the mid 70s, my friend Cliff, the head of the student concert agency who brought him there (also the guy I shared an apartment with and where post concert Mingus band party transpired, sans Mingus), asked me if they could borrow my Ampeg B-15 and I said yes, I’d be honored if Mingus played thru my amp (!).

Well he played the whole night (using the wonderful (not) polytone pickup) just as loud as the B15 could go. I’m not even sure it was mic’ed — the venue was about the size of a basketball court.

When it came time for an encore and Mingus (surprisingly) obliged, the Ampeg just started howling (“no Mas!”).

So they didn’t play the encore.

I didn’t have the heart to try and recoup for the amp, and besides, it was the great Charles Mingus that totaled my amp.

Just reminiscing, thanks.

Oucn, my experience with loaning my Ampeg B-15N was different, when John Clayton borrowed mine it sounded better after he returned it.

 

[Selim]

Oucn, my experience with loaning my Ampeg B-15N was different, when John Clayton borrowed mine it sounded better after he returned it.

Spiritually that makes perfect sense!

 

[Peck_Time]

Just for clarification here, When many folks talk about "no amp", in many instances they're still using a microphone into a PA, so there is still
frontline support and monitors, and in the case of Blue Grass and Folk there aren't any drums. So the last time I played with "No Amp, No Pickup, and No Microphone
was in highschool "stage band". Just my take, since that's splitting hairs.

Oh for sure, music scenes are different everywhere too.

I did two “no amp, no pickup and no microphone” gigs last week. One was piano, guitar and bass. The other one was with drums, and two gypsy guitars.

I feel that we don’t realise how loud our basses are in the audience when played acoustic too. I’d rather be too quiet but play acoustic with a loud drummer. I’m not into volume wars.

Plus load-in and load-out is awesome with no-amp!

 

[james condino]

no amp = no gigs because the guy that could be heard gets called for the job.....!!!

 

[thehindteet]

a sincere question for people who play no amp regularly. I have a plywood, I don't legitimately play classical but I work constantly on Simandl and I only have the one bass, so I like hybrid type strings. My bass is not very bright sounding, but the sound is has is really nice and I love it. I don't want to change basses, and I don't play for a living so I don't have any real pressure to do anything.

Because the bass is pretty quiet, when I play with no amp, I have to play pretty hard to be able to hear myself. The method studies have been a huge boon because I don't freak out if I can't hear myself; my hands kinda know where to go. But that combination of some uncertainty and having to play hard is stressful.

If you're playing no amp, and you feel like you're struggling, are you cool with asking the ensemble to turn down? If my bass is below average in volume, am I maybe screwing up the feel for the ensemble if I'm having to ask them to meet me where I can hear myself?

It's been a while since I tried pizz. focused strings, maybe I'm overestimating how hard it would me for me to bow them? Also I know I've been getting kinda soft backing off the bridge adjusters to get an easier action, maybe I should think about easing myself up a few turns and trying to find a way to make volume with the right hand that doesn't tire me out?

Thanks in advance for any advice; this is something I've been thinking about a lot. I know there's no single right answer but I love the anecdotes people usually have about this kind of stuff.

 

[Ric Vice]

Because the bass is pretty quiet, when I play with no amp, I have to play pretty hard to be able to hear myself. The method studies have been a huge boon because I don't freak out if I can't hear myself; my hands kinda know where to go. But that combination of some uncertainty and having to play hard is stressful.[/QUOTE]

If you cannot hear yourself ( I've been in this situation many times) then you tense up, that puts additional strain on the hands, arms, ect. you should be able to hear what you're playing

[/QUOTE]If you're playing no amp, and you feel like you're struggling, are you cool with asking the ensemble to turn down? If my bass is below average in volume, am I maybe screwing up the feel for the ensemble if I'm having to ask them to meet me where I can hear myself?[/QUOTE]

There are different expectation for different types of music, if your playing Orchestral music, then you can generally ballance with the ensemble acoustically, but Jazz is a entirely different matter. Unless you are playing, with an all acoustic group in a very resonant concert space, then my take is that backline
support is significantly important. I've heard the Modern Jazz Quartet play acoustically and it sounded very nice but that ensemble plays very nuanced music, I also heard Dave Brubeck at Indiana University in the 1970's you could hear Eugiene Wright but that's a more nuanced music as well.

[/QUOTE]It's been a while since I tried pizz. focused strings, maybe I'm overestimating how hard it would me for me to bow them? Also I know I've been getting kinda soft backing off the bridge adjusters to get an easier action, maybe I should think about easing myself up a few turns and trying to find a way to make volume with the right hand that doesn't tire me out?[/QUOTE]


You have to go with what's right for you, Simandil was written at a time when Arco was the prevalent style of playing. It's designed to teach those skills. I studied from those books for years, until I found the Nanny books,
which are better in my opinion. Since then Rabbath has developed a totally different system that's even better, and puts lest strain on your hands. We're playing complicated pizzicato lines on an instrument that was optimally
designed to create flowing arco. Michael Moore wrote a very fine set of technique books that apply equally to jazz and orchestral playing.

Finally, you to play acoustically, you need a decent bass and that has become a very
expensive proposition. Upton Basses start at around $8,500.00 obtaining that amount of
money just isn't possible for many fine bassists.

 

[AGCurry]

Because the bass is pretty quiet, when I play with no amp, I have to play pretty hard to be able to hear myself. The method studies have been a huge boon because I don't freak out if I can't hear myself; my hands kinda know where to go. But that combination of some uncertainty and having to play hard is stressful.

If you're playing no amp, and you feel like you're struggling, are you cool with asking the ensemble to turn down? If my bass is below average in volume, am I maybe screwing up the feel for the ensemble if I'm having to ask them to meet me where I can hear myself?

Assuming you're playing with an acoustic ensemble, it's not realistic to ask the other players to play softer just so you can hear yourself; they are likely to be playing already at a level that's right for the room (and because they're also not amplified, they can't "turn down"). If other instruments are amplified, or you're playing with a drummer, you may just have to bite the bullet and get yourself amped.

Do keep in mind that your seat is likely to be the worst one in the room for hearing your bass. You have a great advantage in that your hands "know where to go."

 

[Ed Fuqua]

no amp = no gigs because the guy that could be heard gets called for the job.....!!!

Provably not true.

 

[damonsmith]

I am with Ed, "jobs" you get "called for" don't want to hear the bass!

no amp = no gigs because the guy that could be heard gets called for the job.....!!!

Spirocores are great arco string and will give you more projection pizz. I'd consider looking at a hybrid since your bass isn't cutting it and you are interested in arco.

a sincere question for people who play no amp regularly. I have a plywood, I don't legitimately play classical but I work constantly on Simandl and I only have the one bass, so I like hybrid type strings. My bass is not very bright sounding, but the sound is has is really nice and I love it. I don't want to change basses, and I don't play for a living so I don't have any real pressure to do anything.

Because the bass is pretty quiet, when I play with no amp, I have to play pretty hard to be able to hear myself. The method studies have been a huge boon because I don't freak out if I can't hear myself; my hands kinda know where to go. But that combination of some uncertainty and having to play hard is stressful.

If you're playing no amp, and you feel like you're struggling, are you cool with asking the ensemble to turn down? If my bass is below average in volume, am I maybe screwing up the feel for the ensemble if I'm having to ask them to meet me where I can hear myself?

It's been a while since I tried pizz. focused strings, maybe I'm overestimating how hard it would me for me to bow them? Also I know I've been getting kinda soft backing off the bridge adjusters to get an easier action, maybe I should think about easing myself up a few turns and trying to find a way to make volume with the right hand that doesn't tire me out?

Thanks in advance for any advice; this is something I've been thinking about a lot. I know there's no single right answer but I love the anecdotes people usually have about this kind of stuff.

 

[Ric Vice]

Just out of curiosity, do "true" orchestral double basses use amps (& pickups)? (And I'm not asking about "on the side" gigs, just the orchestral settings.)

Generally, no they do not. They do use DPA 4099's when they perform soundtracks with films.

 

[AGCurry]

Generally, no they do not. They do use DPA 4099's when they perform soundtracks with films.

When they perform live, they don't use anything. Whatever microphones are there are generally placed to pick up the orchestra - or sections of it - as a whole, for recording. Here in St. Louis, symphony concerts are recorded for later rebroadcast on radio and TV. The microphones are not there for sound reinforcement. You want more bass, you add another bass.

 

[Ric Vice]

When they perform live, they don't use anything. Whatever microphones are there are generally placed to pick up the orchestra - or sections of it - as a whole, for recording. Here in St. Louis, symphony concerts are recorded for later rebroadcast on radio and TV. The microphones are not there for sound reinforcement. You want more bass, you add another bass.

AG,
I was refering to their performances, playing the score live along, with a movie, I've watched them do this several times Harry Potter and The Goblet of Fire, Warner Brothers Cartoons etc. In those cases every instrument in the orchestra has a DPA 4099 placed on it. That's the only time they use that setup. They also sometimes wear headphones to follow a click. Otherwise you are correct they do not use microphones.