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Going to the Studio; Best Mic Combo

#21
There is no completely right or wrong answer here. A good engineer can get usable sounds from several different setups. Although not everyone can make it work, I like using a large diaphragm dynamic and a large diaphragm condenser together. The dynamic produces a rounder, softer sound and the condenser has lighting fast transients. Listen carefully and take the time to get the sound right
 
#22
SplinteredSkull said:
If we did that then I'd hand him a RATM album, the drummer a RHCP, and the guitarists Blink-182 and Green Day. We all come from totally different backgrounds. I never really intended to play punk, but our sounds (live) mesh great.
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You missed my point. Take an album that's similar to what your band, not the individual members want to sound like as a reference for the engineer. If you give him what each of you want to sound like individually you'll have done yourself a disservice, and probably irritated the engineer. Engineers want to know the end product, and they will decide how to get it there. Good ones at least.
 
#23
definitely check out the shure sm-7b (close miking) if u can.. its one of my favourite recording mics.. and the heil pr48. do you know what preamps you can use at the studio? most pentode preamps with slight drive sound great to my ears. (TL audio etc)
i think the sm7b plus DI should be enough.. but one can always experiment
 
#24
As an engineer: tell me what tone (in the mix) is your goal, what gear you have (just in case I could use something). Get your bass (and maybe some of your gear) and set it dead flat. We start from there. Than debate about final tone (always in the mix). You can sound awfull by your own and sound great in the mix, or both.

As a bassist: I just take my bass in the studio and talk nicely with the engineer. Even if I know a lot and have experience as a sound engineer I´ll want to rely on the studio engineer because in this case he will know better what´s best, and this leaves me to concentrate on my playing.
 
#26
Gnarlynewman said:
I'll mic the cab using one mic, usually a 421. I really like the warmth you get from that one. Place it off center from the cone to prevent the "poof" as I call it.
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Are you calling the "poof" what I call the "nose" of the 421? Honestly, i can't stand that "nose" of the 421, but it could be nice if I could get rid of it.

Back to the OP: my favourite recorded tone I ever got was one RE20 close micing my cab. Nothing else.
Alternately, i was extremely pleased with blending a Mojave ribbon mic with a Shure SM7 placed off center.

Of note: on niether recording did I end up on the record with just that tone. Both had DI blended in because the producer liked it that way for the final mix. If you have ideas, discuss them with the producer. If you have no ideas, ask them. And above all else, pay attention and learn as much as you can!
 
#27
yeah alot of times to the engineer is willing to sit down with you free of charge to discuss your project in advance of a formal session. Usually like an hour or so...you can each talk about tones you want to get, he should be able to show you other projects that might capture the tone, or get close and he can talk to you about how they got it and what you might need to bring.
 
#29
IME any time you are working in a legit pro studio, a short and cordial discussion of methods and goals with each player is expected at some point before tracking begins.

I wouldn't assume an engineer needs to be told how to do his job, but neither would I assume he is a mind reader. There are all kinds of styles and tastes. I can tell from one or two questions whether the guy gets what I am looking for, and a pro is going to want you to be comfortable and know that he respects at least the style of your music. Like if I was going to record a sort of post punk record, and I mention that I like the bass sounds on the original albums by Television, Gang of Four, and Joy Division, and I'll be using a head which is similar to a Hiwatt, I need to get some sort of knowing smile or something back.

If at the end of this exchange, the guy doesn't seem to get what the music is, or wants carte blanche to do whatever he normally does (like record DI only), as far as I'm concerned it is not going to happen with that guy and/or that studio. It's much better to find that out before anything is tracked.

I would emphasize that I've never even heard of an established pro studio refusing a basic, reasonable request like miking an amp (with an additional DI track). If the player's amp sucks or is too noisy, the appropriate response would be to suggest an available alternative.

Mic selection would typically be more up to the engineer, but I have to say, Beta 52 on bass sounds to me like a questionable choice. If this is a project studio kind of thing and the price tag is appropriate for that, OK, but I'd feel justified in pressing for another mic choice. The 421 would be perfectly fine with me, as would any of the other standbys we talked about. None of those mics in the full range "radio booth" dynamic category are expensive or exotic. I'd worry if none of those were available and I was paying real money. My project studio has a selection of those.
 
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#30
teleharmonium said:
IME any time you are working in a legit pro studio, a short and cordial discussion of methods and goals with each player is expected at some point before tracking begins.

I wouldn't assume an engineer needs to be told how to do his job, but neither would I assume he is a mind reader. There are all kinds of styles and tastes. I can tell from one or two questions whether the guy gets what I am looking for, and a pro is going to want you to be comfortable and know that he respects at least the style of your music. Like if I was going to record a sort of post punk record, and I mention that I like the bass sounds on the original albums by Television, Gang of Four, and Joy Division, and I'll be using a head which is similar to a Hiwatt, I need to get some sort of knowing smile or something back.

If at the end of this exchange, the guy doesn't seem to get what the music is, or wants carte blanche to do whatever he normally does (like record DI only), as far as I'm concerned it is not going to happen with that guy and/or that studio. It's much better to find that out before anything is tracked.

I would emphasize that I've never even heard of an established pro studio refusing a basic, reasonable request like miking an amp (with an additional DI track). If the player's amp sucks or is too noisy, the appropriate response would be to suggest an available alternative.

Mic selection would typically be more up to the engineer, but I have to say, Beta 52 on bass sounds to me like a questionable choice. If this is a project studio kind of thing and the price tag is appropriate for that, OK, but I'd feel justified in pressing for another mic choice. The 421 would be perfectly fine with me, as would any of the other standbys we talked about. None of those mics in the full range "radio booth" dynamic category are expensive or exotic. I'd worry if none of those were available and I was paying real money. My project studio has a selection of those.
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I really want to go in and talk to him now, after hearing he would typically use the Beta 52. I don't see there being a problem with requesting something like the 421 and then adding DI. The sound I go after isn't what typically fits a punk sound, and I don't model my sound to fit this punk/alternative genre band. I vary it little by song of course, to get the best tone. So I base my bass tone of what's in my head and the music I mainly play/listen to. I will keep all of the microphone options that have been mentioned in mind when I go to meet with them to see what they have, and what might be best for what I'm after. Thank you al for the input on both microphones, and recording in the studio
 
#33
Gizmot said:
A Beta 52 doesn't have a large diaphragm capsule. Inside that gigantic housing is a half-inch capsule. Don't expect it to have the low end authority that a big diaphragm has.
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SM7 doesn't have a large capsule either.
Still rocks just fine.

When I mic a Bass amp and have the time, I compare SM7/RE20/Beta 52/a few Ribbon options maybe.
In rare cases, a Large Condenser.
Listen to see what compliments the tone the best.

Generally you can just CUT EQ in the midrange until you are left with the Low End you want.
The Beta 52 has Low end to spare and it has a presence peak that sounds great with Rock Bass tones.

I'm far from being an authority, but I've been experimenting with Bass Amp mics since the mid 80's.
I actually prefer going with a 100% Mic tone (muting the DI) when I get it right.
 
#34
JustSomeDude said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with a Beta52 on a Bass Cab.
I've done it many times.
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I'm not saying it's objectively wrong , I'm saying that mic as a first choice is suggestive of a project studio or a less experienced engineer. Both of which are fine if that is what is in the budget and within expectations.

Subjectively, we'll have to agree to disagree that it is in the same class as those others. To me it is a subpar kick drum mic; I wouldn't use it for that either if I was picking up the tab. It's not just about the presence peak (which I don't generally need when micing an amp with good sounding highs). The Beta52 has an absurd proximity effect, and then if you back it off enough to avoid that, you lose a bunch of mids.

The mic was designed to compete with the D112, and it provides the same service: a ginormous low end boom, and relatively much less midrange, and then a huge presence peak and hardly anything above that. This holds true at all distances. The response curve is on the below link.

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#36
JustSomeDude said:
Yes, the Beta 52 is a massive 'smiley face' curve.
Sometimes that does the job.
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Yes some people like that. I would caution against thinking of the difference between that mic and an all purpose large dynamic mic as being just about the curve, though. That's where the curve can't tell the whole story.

The reason being that EQ boosts that are created by the proximity effect, internal resonance chambers in the mic body or head, or even disc type filters for presence peaks do not sound the same as the same source picked up by a flatter mic. If you like that boomy resonant sound, then fine, but my point is that you can never make a Beta 52 sound like an RE20 no matter what subsequent EQ you use on it, even if you don't need anything above 5K (where you would have to do severe, probably phase smearing additive EQ to get the 52 to have comparable highs to the RE20).

Whereas at mix time you can easily take the output from an RE20 and run it through an EQ to dip the mids, make a resonant peak in the lows using the shelf and high pass, and cut the highs if you wanted to replicate the curve and sound of a 52. And then you have full control over how much of those low boosts and mid cuts you really want, as well as the option to boost the lows without introducing resonance, or you can just leave it alone and let it sound like the amp, none of which are possible with the 52.
 
#38
At a minimum, you'll want to record a bassline (no pun intended!) capture of your sound in case the different flavors of mics don't pan out. Use an excellent DI to accomplish the fundamental recording. I recommend the Radial JDV Class-A Direct Box. Be sure to record with a pre-EQ signal as this will enable the most flexibility in the post processing phase for trying variations in sound. As for micing the bass cabinet, I've had excellent results with an ElectroVoice RE-20 and Sennheiser MD-421. Experimenting with placing the mic in various distances from the cab helps to introduce some of the room noise, which can be very useful in creating unique recordings. You also can blend sounds of the DI and multiple mics. There are many options and no single one is the "right" solution. It all comes down to a preference of you, the band, and the producer. As they say, "serve the song" and all will be well.

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#39
for studio sessions, always start with a fresh brand new set of strings, and make sure your intonation is set properly.
I usually will go in while they are setting up drums, and ask the engineer how they usually run things.
You may be pleasantly surprised by the bass amp they have in the corner. It might be super cool and sound great, plus, they are familiar with it and know how to tweak it to get what you might be looking for.

but they will have a nice DI for you and will not take the signal from your amp.
they will probably try 1 or 2 mics on the cab and see what works best with the kick drum sound.

But like what others said, start with settings all flat, then go from there.
 
#40
I've gone from going DI at home to using mics. The sounds I go for is very metallic/slightly dirty on top with enough lows to balance it out. I seem to get enough with my Audix I5(I used an SM57 by itself before) and don't have a need for DI right now as I'm already cutting some lows to get my sound.

If I did use one, it would be purely for adding lowend.
 
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