Double Bass Good bass combo for coloring tone a lot?

[Jack Clark]

I'm interested in a good bass combo of around 400-watts that will let me color the tone a good deal. I'm in a hobby band that mostly plays bluegrass with some country, rock and pop. But I personally love jazz the best, so I want my instrument to sound good for jazz, too.

Specifically, I play an upright guitarrón (UG) with bass guitar (BG) flatwounds tuned E1-A1-D2-G2-C3-F3 and I play it upright like a double bass (DB). My impression is that most DBists like amps and combos that are transparent and flat so the natural sound of their DB comes through. I, on the other hand, am always trying to make my UG sound as much like a DB as possible, so I'm always looking to color its tone a good deal away from a round-wound acoustic BG sound and more toward a flat-wound DB sound. (I realize that it'll never actually get there.)

I'm already getting a good bit of tone control through my Headway EDB-1 preamp, but I'm always looking to get closer to DB sound. (I especially need to cut the boom on my open A string at 55 Hz, which the notch filter on the EDB-1 helps to do, but not entirely.) Right now I have only two combos, both practice combos: a 50-watt Acoustic AB50 and a 5-watt Roland Micro Cube Bass RX (that will run on batteries or AC), and I currently have their EQs set with their Bass knobs neutral at 12 o'clock and everything else turned all the way down. I have my EDB-1 EQs set the same way, and I'm getting a fairly dark, thumpy initial-attack sound, but with plenty of sustain when I want it. (I play pizz only.) But my guitarrón was really designed to play an A1 (55 Hz) as its lowest note, and my open A1 string really booms; my lowest open string (E1) does not. As I indicated, the notch filter on the EDB-1 does not seem to entirely take care of the A1 boom, although using it does make a huge improvement.

Initially, I was attracted to an Acoustic Image Coda-R, with its additional notch filter, of which Gollihur has a great description at

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But they tout the Coda's transparent sound, which is probably not what I really want, is it? Or, since I'd be using a Headway EDB-1 with it, maybe it is?

Do you guys have recommendations as to bass combos to check out for my purpose? Thanks in advance.

 

[Ric Vice]

I'm interested in a good bass combo of around 400-watts that will let me color the tone a good deal. I'm in a hobby band that mostly plays bluegrass with some country, rock and pop. But I personally love jazz the best, so I want my instrument to sound good for jazz, too.

....Specifically, I play an upright guitarrón (UG) with bass guitar (BG) flatwounds tuned E1-A1-D2-G2-C3-F3 and I play it upright like a double bass (DB).

Jack,
I've been working on my amplified sound for over thirty years. The goal has always been to have the amp and speakers faithfully reproduce the sound that my Double Bass produces acoustically. Acoustic Image amplifiers are dedicated to doing just that. Using one, with your instrument will give you the sound of your instrument, provided your pickup does it justice.

My impression is that most DBists like amps and combos that are transparent and flat so the natural sound of their DB comes through. I, on the other hand, am always trying to make my UG sound as much like a DB as possible, so I'm always looking to color its tone a good deal away from a round-wound acoustic BG sound and more toward a flat-wound DB sound. (I realize that it'll never actually get there.)

In my case I like more coloration in the mid range than the Acoustic Image pre amp provides. The EDB-1 has exactly the midrange tone quality or timbre that I'm looking for.

I'm already getting a good bit of tone control through my Headway EDGB-1 preamp, but I'm always looking to get closer to DB sound. Initially, I was attracted to an Acoustic Image Coda-R of which Gollihur has a great description at


........But they tout the Coda's transparent sound, which is probably not what I really want, is it? Or, since I'm already using a Headway EDGB-1 with it, maybe it is?

The Headway EDB-1 has a great pre amp with more control over the upper and lower midrange so it has a different voicing than the AI pre amp. With my bass, strings, and pickup it gives me the tone quality I prefer.
A Gallien Krueger 200MB did that as well.

Do you guys have recommendations as to bass combos to check out for my purpose? Thanks in advance.

If I were looking to play the variety of musics that you do. I'd demo the Acoustic Image Ten 2. You could use the Headway EDB-1 into the effects loop for your guitarron. The other amp I'd look at is the Euphonic Audio Doubler with Wizzy 12 M line. Neither of these options is economical, but both are great amplifiers. IMHO

Ric

 

[Passinwind]

Do you guys have recommendations as to bass combos to check out for my purpose? Thanks in advance.

Ric's advice is a great place to start, but I'll come from the angle of someone using a "faux" bass and interested in copping as much of the DB sound as is reasonable to expect.

The Carvin BX500 head might suit you pretty well. It leans to the transparent side by default, but it has a huge amount of effective tonal variation available and tweaks my flavor of stick bass toward double bass territory a lot more convincingly than my AI and EA amps ever did -- but both those brands did serve me quite well really. The BX500 comes in a couple of Carvin combos as well, with which I have no experience. If you decide to try this route be sure to get one of the current revisions, as the early ones exhibited a lot of problems.

If you can swing it, there are lots of nice cabs that translate substantial EQ coloring well. I have had nice results with the EA CxL-112, AccuGroove Tri-112L, and lately the AudioKinesis Thunderchild 112 Acoustic-Friendly.

 

[Ric Vice]

Ric's advice is a great place to start, but I'll come from the angle of someone using a "faux" bass and interested in copping as much of the DB sound as is reasonable to expect.

The Carvin BX500 head might suit you pretty well. It leans to the transparent side by default, but it has a huge amount of effective tonal variation available and tweaks my flavor of stick bass toward double bass territory a lot more convincingly than my AI and EA amps ever did -- but both those brands did serve me quite well really. The BX500 comes in a couple of Carvin combos as well, with which I have no experience. If you decide to try this route be sure to get one of the current revisions, as the early ones exhibited a lot of problems.

If you can swing it, there are lots of nice cabs that translate substantial EQ coloring well. I have had nice results with the EA CxL-112, AccuGroove Tri-112L, and lately the AudioKinesis Thunderchild 112 Acoustic-Friendly.

+1 I'm going to defer to someone that has hands on experience with both AI and EA amplifiers. Personally now, I have two Walter Woods amplifiers which suit me perfectly through the Thunderchild 112 or EA VL 108 and 208. I always hesitate to offer up Walter's amplifiers because they are very high end amps. If the Carvin BX 500 will do the trick than you're going to save a whole lot of dough.

Ric

 

[Passinwind]

If the Carvin BX 500 will do the trick than you're going to save a whole lot of dough.

The WW amps are great for real upright, of course, and I very nearly bought one for my EUB when I had the chance. The Carvin's reliability is a bit of a crapshoot, I think. I bought a broken one and fixed it myself, which falls into "don't try this at home" territory even for many experienced techs. So far it's been flawless on a few dozen gigs and many rehearsals since then, but...

Oddly enough, the one feature that put me off the Carvin at first is probably the best thing about it: the graphic EQ. They chose frequency centers really well, and it is footswitchable, which is ideal for me for arco work on my EUB.

Another viable approach to coloring tone a lot is a DSP unit such as the MiniDSP, the Boss bass preamp floor pedals, or the ones in some of the newer power amps. I've written a few threads on the BG side about this, particularly my quasi-Berg IP rig.

 

[Ric Vice]

The WW amps are great for real upright, of course, and I very nearly bought one for my EUB when I had the chance. The Carvin's reliability is a bit of a crapshoot, I think. I bought a broken one and fixed it myself, which falls into "don't try this at home" territory even for many experienced techs. So far it's been flawless on a few dozen gigs and many rehearsals since then, but...

Walter's amps work fine for all my DB and EB gigs, they don't have that ultra modern EQ and punch that the newer Markbass and Genz Benz amps do or the Berg IP cabs, but they will handle all my gig's without a hitch. Other than Ken Jung, you're the only person that I've ever talked to that owns one. Aren't all Carvin's built in the U.S.
? I would think for us folks who weren't skilled with electronics all you'd have to do is return it to them for a replacement.

Oddly enough, the one feature that put me off the Carvin at first is probably the best thing about it: the graphic EQ. They chose frequency centers really well, and it is footswitchable, which is ideal for me for arco work on my EUB.

Personally, Graphic EQ's boggle my mind. I'm really comfortable with the old shelving Bass, Midrange, and Treble controls on my older WW MI-400-8. I understand GEQ's it in principle, but in practice, it's way above my pay grade.

Another viable approach to coloring tone a lot is a DSP unit such as the MiniDSP, the Boss bass preamp floor pedals, or the ones in some of the newer power amps. I've written a few threads on the BG side about this, particularly my quasi-Berg IP rig.

I love the concept of the Berg IP cabs, but they were way out of my reach when they were available. The Headway EDB-1 will drive a line level input on most power amps. so if I headed in that direction I'd try that. I'll take a read of the PW BG DSP threads. You're way further up the ladder from me, because, if I remember correctly you build your own cabinets, ala Mike Arnopol.

Ric

 

[Passinwind]

Aren't all Carvin's built in the U.S. ?
I would think for us folks who weren't skilled with electronics all you'd have to do is return it to them for a replacement.

The warranty is one year, IIRC. After that, factory repair is as much as or more than buying a used one. But at the buy-in price, many people probably are fine with the degree of risk. I just tend to be cautious about recommending anything that has had known teething issues, which this amp definitely did. I'm not sure if Carvin even supports third party repairs, but they do at least have a schematic for this amp posted on their website, without which I would have had no chance of repairing it.


Personally, Graphic EQ's boggle my mind. I'm really comfortable with the old shelving Bass, Midrange, and Treble controls on my older WW MI-400-8. I understand GEQ's in principle, but in practice, it's way above my pay grade.

I'm with you -- less is often more. My DIY preamps are B/M/T, plus a bright switch. However, I've also worn the sound dewd hat for a zillion years and am pretty comfortable with calling EQ frequencies from the stage in real time if needed. When I'm playing I generally prefer to forget about all the techie stuff though. As one bandleader said before my first gig with him: "just bring whatever amp hits all the changes in time."


I love the concept of the Berg IP cabs, but they were way out of my reach when they were available. The Headway EDB-1 will drive a line level input on most power amps. so if I headed in that direction I'd try that. I'll take a read of the PW BG DSP threads. You're way further up the ladder from me, because, if I remember correctly you build your own cabinets, ala Mike Arnopol.

I have built a few cabs, but my background is primarily as an amp tech. I managed to get one of the amps the IP uses and program the DSP for my own cabs. Those programs work really well with the Thunderchild too, since Duke and I were mostly shooting for the same things in our cab designs. Mike and I have also talked a bit about his builds, which I would love to hear.

 

[TroyK]

You're in a position that most of us aren't. Take your cool instrument to the Guitar Center and play through everything. Various GK, SWR, Ampeg and Markbass amps are yours for the trying, plus you'd get a lot of attention in their with your special axe. It's kind of sad for the rest of us actually how many cool, readily available amps there are that just aren't an option for us. Take advantage!

As with strings, pickups and everything else, you're blazing new ground with that instrument and I think whenever possible, experimentation is going to be the most valuable thing for you.

Let us know.

 

[Jack Clark]

The Carvin BX500 head might suit you pretty well. It leans to the transparent side by default, but it has a huge amount of effective tonal variation available and tweaks my flavor of stick bass toward double bass territory a lot more convincingly than my AI and EA amps ever did -- but both those brands did serve me quite well really. The BX500 comes in a couple of Carvin combos as well, with which I have no experience. If you decide to try this route be sure to get one of the current revisions, as the early ones exhibited a lot of problems.

On Passinwind's and Ric's recs, I checked out the Carvin BX500 at the Carvin website, and it looks ideal for what I need. The parametric controls would appear add to what my EDB-1's notch filter is doing. (A notch filter is just a type of parametric filter, isn't it? Seems the same to me.) The the EQ section appears very useful, too. And the BX500 appears to be the amp in two of Carvin's bass combos—one a 1x15 and the other a 2x10, the latter of which appeals to me more since I would expect a tighter bass from it.

Only problem is that I can't locate anywhere around that sells Carvin amps or combos new. Guitar Center has some used ones spread around their various stores, but from what Passinwind says I want to stay away from early ones. It appears that Carvin sells them new directly from its website. Currently, Carvin is offering its BX500 head for $379 (plus tax and $19 shipping), it's BR515N combo for $649, and its BR510N for $619 (plus tax and $45 shipping.)

Troy, your suggestion that I just shlep my small bass to various stores and try amps and combos is excellent. I'm in no hurry for a bigger combo, since we're just a hobby band and all of the venues we've played so far were handled okay by my 50-watt Acoustic AB50. So I can take my time preparing for anything bigger. Maybe I'll just check out the Carvins the next time I'm in San Diego where Carvin is located—which will be in January.

Thanks very much for your input, all you guys.

 

[Ric5]

My favorite amps for coloring tone are always Ampeg.

 

[Passinwind]

Only problem is that I can't locate anywhere around that sells Carvin amps or combos new.

Direct sales only, but there are a few Carvin factory outlet stores in southern Cal., I think.

 

[Jack Clark]

Direct sales only, but there are a few Carvin factory outlet stores in southern Cal., I think.

Yeah, apparently they have outlets in Hollywood and in Santa Ana. But I just checked their San Diego address and it turns out I've been driving within a few hundred yards of the main Carvin store several times a year. I'll definitely be spending some time at that store, with my odd axe, at least by Monday, January 23, 2012, which is the first practice-round day of the Farmer's Insurance Open golf tournament, which I cover every year for our local paper.

Something nice to look forward to! Thanks, again, for the tip, PW. (And I've responded to your PM.)