Good mike choices for my cabinet

[corinpills]

I think the suggestions of SM57's are crazy, they are barely usable for vocals, snares, and guitar cabs maybe.

Man, you are going to be really busy. You need to get started on letting every professional soundman and recording engineer in the world that they should stop using 57s. It's going to be really hard tp convince them after them being the reliable industry standard for just about everything for 50 years, but I bet you can do it.

I do think a mic more geared to bass frequencies is better than a 57 for micing an amp, though. A Shure Beta 52 is an inexpensive mic that works well. An AKG D12 is lovely, but expensive. The D112 is a fine cheaper option.

 

[Redbrangus]

For rock electric bass: RE20 (my favorite) but am also very happy with an MD-421
I think either of these could be found in the $200ish range on the used market. If you really want to buy a dedicated bass/drum mic, it's worth it.
I've also been asked to use a D-12 which I didn't love.

I agree with all of this, but sort of question whether there are actual RE20's available on the used market for $200...if there were, I'd probably own a couple. Please do be aware that EV offers several variants of the RE20 that look similar but aren't equivalent. I do see 421's occasionally in the $175-200 range and they are a great investment at that price if they are in good shape. The clip IS a huge bugaboo...I would consider whether or not the clip is present and functional when buying a used 421--the replacement clip is about $30 and is somewhat difficult to source. Don't know about the poster who said it isn't as bad as the 441...almost all of the 441's I've ever encountered used the same fussy, fragile clip. Gaff or duct-taping a mic to a stand in lieu of a proper clip is just plain bush league...not to say that I haven't been forced to do it.

I'm also not fond of the D-12/D-112 mic for much of anything, although it was an industry staple for kick drum and bass for a long time.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I expect this plot doesn't account for proximity affect which would add energy in the low-mids around the octave 125 to 250.

All bets are off in the real world.

Readings are taken under standardized conditions to provide a reference so that products can be compared.

 

[beans-on-toast]

...is the live mix school of thought still to use a passive DI on an active bass, and, an active DI on a passive bass?

That's what manufactures generally recommend. The insertion loss of a passive DI with a passive pickup lowers the signal level too much for some.

I have no level issues, for example, with my passive Radial DI with a Jensen transformer and a PBass. So, it depends.

 

[Jim C]

Oops.
The RE20's used to be $200 used all day long!
Reverb tells me that my pricing is based from too long ago.
$350 is the new $200, right?

 

[agedhorse]

Here's my two cents - as the graphs posted by others have illustrated, an SM57 has no low end. It can't because it's diaphragm is only 0.5 inches. The RE-20, the 421, the D-112, etc have 1 inch diaphragms and it's easy to hear the difference that the larger capsules make. Large diaphragm condensers can also do a good job. However, with the mics with more low end, you need a mixer with better EQ so you can dial in what sounds good and roll off some of the LF garbage that you'll get.

Diaphragm diameter is only a small part of the low frequency extension of a mic. Much more has to do with diaphragm design, compliance, and how the diaphragm is used in the off axis canceling mechanisms (in a directional mic). If is was purely diaphragm size, in ear monitor elements would have no low end at all

QUOTE="GoesThump, post: 22155249, member: 96149"]Yeah, at least it isn't as terrible as the 441.

Slightly OT, but the mounts w/a lot of mics are getting worse over time. The super-fragile thing that comes with the C414 xls is stunningly cheap given that the mic is $1500.

GT[/QUOTE]

441 is right up there, as is the suspension mount for the 414.

I've engineered more that 250 recordings with a twin 24-track remote recording truck. I think may of the techniques used for live recording also apply to live sound.
Manytimes the multi-track masters were sent back to the label's producer/engineer.
I would usually call ahead and find out if they would like the sessions cut with or without EQ, how much compression, and what type of gear would they like to be used.
My own opinions were usually the same as the request.

For rock electric bass: RE20 (my favorite) but am also very happy with an MD-421
I think either of these could be found in the $200ish range on the used market. If you really want to buy a dedicated bass/drum mic, it's worth it.
I've also been asked to use a D-12 which I didn't love.

For jazz UB: With a quiet ensemble a U-87 or U47
With a louder group I'd see if I could sneak a gobo in to control bleed.
If not, then the RE20 was a decent choice

I do like having the ability to use a mic but would not say that it is always the best solution.
Very rarely was the mic'd track used alone, sometimes blended, and sometime not used at all.
Sometimes a dry DI sounded best and this was back when the best available was a Countryman 85 (which I still use depending on the application). For passive, I liked the old blue Sescom's that had Jensen transformers.
If the player requested a DI be taken from the amp, I would still run my own DI with it.
I wouldn't try an untested amp DI on my watch. If it failed in any way, it would have been my fault.

I like the opportunity to try a mic on bass during soundcheck but as an opening act, that isn't always a possibility. Bottom line, if you could only use one source, the DI was most important.

Stupidest request:
Use Monster Cable from the stereo out buss to broadcast / 2-track mix for a guest engineer.
Apparently 5,000+ feet of Belden mic and snake cable was OK for the inputs but not for the stereo mix.
We got to use regular TT for the patch bay too.
Go figure

Andy; is the live mix school of thought still to use a passive DI on an active bass, and, an active DI on a passive bass?

Generally, an active DI on a passive bass, a passive DI on an active bass (especially if there are noise floor issues or if there are electronics before that may need additional galvanic isolation beyond what's possible from a phantom powered active DI. That's one reason the Countryman has a 9V battery option.

 

[Mugre]

All bets are off in the real world.

Readings are taken under standardized conditions to provide a reference so that products can be compared.

As they should be if your want them to be meaningful. If only it wasn't so frequently that the Marketing Dept trumped engineering. The resurgence of "Peak Instantaneous Power" ratings in "Pro" gear is like a 40 year old nightmare coming back to haunt us.

As far as the real world. Yeah, that's kind of why I posted what I did because the proximity boost would add usefulness for the 57 as a bass instrument mic that belies what is shown on that plot.

happy new year and I always look forward to your posts for the clarity and quality information they contain.

Mugre

 

[mbasile]

Audix D6 might do it, but it really depends what sound you want out of it. Why do you want it mic'd? Is there something about DI that you aren't happy with?

Pricier, but still very much in the "affordable" range for mics include the SE T2, which the sound people for Flogging Molly use on Nathen's bass cab, is good.

I also use an sE 4400a, which is similar to the T2 but just a little less fast on the transients.

Warm Audio has their WA-14 that I like as well, similar to the 4400a, but maybe $100 cheaper.

 

[bigtone23]

A nice DI signal is great for keeping a solid low and and extending the tone of the bass, especially in conjunction with a mic'ed cab. However, I have better luck with the Sansamp section of my Tech 21 Bass Fly Rig as the sole DI for music in the rock/pop vein. Allows me to dial in a touch of amp flavor via a little high end roll off and a very slight touch of grit/compression. It's a one-channel-direct-input for dummies.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Im looking for suggestions for a solid/tough, roadworthy mike..

Mike Rutherford
Mike Anthony
Chicago Mike
Any of those mikes could work, possibly?

Regardless, whatever you do end up with, don't get suckered into buying a kick drum mic.

 

[groovaholic]

Check out The Gear Page for their floor tom recommendations - kick mics tend to have a built-in midrange scoop that will turn your bass into a shapeless mess.

But a mic suitable for floor tom would need good lows, relatively flat response, good transients -- all things desirable when you mic up a bass cab.

My low-dollar find was a Peavey PVM-520, often described as a "Poor Man's RE-20" -- just recorded a bunch of tracks yesterday and the Peavey supplied a nice foil to the DI signal from my GK head; the mic signal had more mids and more "air" around it.

The Audix D4 would be another good option on a budget...

 

[Toolmybass]

Find one used....you can't beat this @ $250
(No affiliation with seller)
Heil PR-40 Dynamic Cable Professional Microphone | eBay

 

[Dave W]

I agree on the Heli PR-40. I bought one a long time ago as a less expensive alternative to the RE-20 and have always been very happy with it. I prefer it over the SM-57, MD-421, and various kick drum mics that are typically referred when players start asking about bass cab mics.

 

[Wasnex]

Yeah, at least it isn't as terrible as the 441.

Slightly OT, but the mounts w/a lot of mics are getting worse over time. The super-fragile thing that comes with the C414 xls is stunningly cheap given that the mic is $1500.

GT

If you are paying $1500 for single C414XLS, you are getting ripped off badly. That's the street price for a stereo set. Agree the shockmounts that come with the mics are very fragile. One fall and they typically break. For stage use, I don't use the shock mounts...instead I just find a stand mic clip that is flexible and fits the 414 shank snugly. I have had good luck with Beyerdynamic MKV 8 or MKV 6, or Audio Technica AT8407.

 

[Sixgunn]

I've been DI for years and it always sounds great. Micing, schmiking!

 

[MikeInSF]

If you must mic a bass cab, then yes - an RE20 or 421 all day long. But if you don't know what you're buying or why you're buying a particular mic over another - and don't want to pay the money to do it right, then your destiny will probably include both annoying (at best) the FOH guy and being unhappy with your sound anyway.

 

[Wasnex]

I agree with all of this, but sort of question whether there are actual RE20's available on the used market for $200...if there were, I'd probably own a couple. Please do be aware that EV offers several variants of the RE20 that look similar but aren't equivalent. I do see 421's occasionally in the $175-200 range and they are a great investment at that price if they are in good shape. The clip IS a huge bugaboo...I would consider whether or not the clip is present and functional when buying a used 421--the replacement clip is about $30 and is somewhat difficult to source. Don't know about the poster who said it isn't as bad as the 441...almost all of the 441's I've ever encountered used the same fussy, fragile clip. Gaff or duct-taping a mic to a stand in lieu of a proper clip is just plain bush league...not to say that I haven't been forced to do it.

I'm also not fond of the D-12/D-112 mic for much of anything, although it was an industry staple for kick drum
and bass for a long time.

The original MD441 clip looked like plexiglass and was pretty fragile. The current clip is flexible and looks like this.

IMHO, The current clips are not fragile or a hassle.


The MD441 is a great mic, but typically even used ones sell for $500 or more. I recently bought one that appeared new in box for around $350 (current version just out of warranty). Had to send it back because the diaphram was blown (no bass). Sennheiser will repair current versions, but it's a flat rate charge and very expensive.

I bought a second vintage MD441 for $350. The variable HPF was non-op and the foam blast filter was disintegrating because it had been used as a vocal mic. Replacement parts for the old-style mics are no longer available. Sennheiser sent me some foam that I cut to size, and I bought a non-op MD421 for $80 and cannibalized the HPF for the MD441....it sounds like new.

 

[agedhorse]

As far as the real world. Yeah, that's kind of why I posted what I did because the proximity boost would add usefulness for the 57 as a bass instrument mic that belies what is shown on that plot.

happy new year and I always look forward to your posts for the clarity and quality information they contain.

Mugre

The proximity effect also includes mid bass boost, the kind that gets in the way of articulate low end. IF you have suitable parametric eq mid that can slide down to about 100Hz, some of this can be dealt with.

 

[Redbrangus]

I never saw one in the wild, but in sales literature I have seen a slip-in clip for the 441 that clipped onto the stand via the fussy little standard clip...sort of the worst of all choices. The first 421's that I ever saw had stand adaptors that allowed the mic to slipped in in that same way. Maybe Sennheiser still offers some of those oddball clips, but the fussy little slip-in clips are fairly ubiquitous. The 441 and 421 are both great mics though. It's virtually impossible to overload them.

 

[agedhorse]

I carried 6 of the 421's, loved them for bass, kick, floor tom, and congas though when t he 604's came out the form factor won me over and the sound was certainly reminiscent of the 421 heritage. The limitations of low frequency SPL precluded their use for kick and bass but they became my go-to for rack and floor toms, congas and sometimes guitar cabinets it low mid heavy rooms. I still prefer the ATM-25 for kick and upright bass (depending on need). I really never liked the D-112 live no matter how hard I tried. Just too much of a good thing that quickly became uncontrollable in a high volume situation.