Double Bass Good orchestral pizz.

[ifg]

Any advice on producing a big, dark, resonant, blooming, timpani-like classical pizz? Despite attempts to get some flesh under the string, and pulling away from the fingerboard, mine is somewhat wimpy sounding (and, worse, on the E string, I cannot produce a sound of any worthy volume without some kind of small fingerboard snap). Possibly an action issue?

With great respect to the jazz & pit crew––you guys own pizz, but it's not (necessarily) the specific style/sound I am after. I'm hoping to get responses from orchestral players.

If it's helpful to know, I play with french bow.

(NB: My autocorrect changed the title of this thread to "good orchestral pizza.)

 

[Hector Wolff]

From my experience your strings have a lot to do with just how orchestra pizz will sound. When I was playing Evahs, I loved the big, dark, blooming pizz I got especially when I pizzed further up the fingerboard (further from the end). When I switched to Belcantos I was disappointed that sound was softer, duller and less resonant.

Also where are you actually contacting the strings?

I always felt that moving up the board away from the end, helps give the pizz that soft attack and blooming sound.

What finger are you using?

I use the middle finger (index finger?) which has the most meat on it.

Yes, low string height will limit what you can put into it, but especially on that E string, I would start pulling more across the string instead of up away from the fingerboard.

 

[mtto]

Two fingers helps get the sound you are describing. For me one finger either sounds small, or like jazz, depending on the contact point and angle. I play German so which two fingers you use might be different for French bow.

 

[Ryker_M]

Strings are definitely a major part of how your pizz is going to sound. I find that my bass produces a very deep pizz when I play at about halfway between the neck and the end of the fingerboard.

However, the other bassist I stand beside tends to produce a lighter sound. It does depend on your strings, and how you apply pressure and in what direction.

Try grabbing the string with your finger (preparing for the pizz part) then pull across and up at the same time. Sort of like a J pattern. That's how I normally play my pizz when I have enough time between notes to do it. If nothing else, a little snap on the fingerboard isn't necessarily going to be heard over the melody that you're backing.

 

[PaulCannon]

Think of a pizzicato in two parts, the attack and the decay.

For the attack, it sounds like you want a softer, less articulate sound akin to a soft timpani mallet. Use two fingers (or your thumb), preferably with a little nose grease swiped on, and try placing it approximately one octave above the sounding pitch. For example, an open string should be plucked near the octave harmonic. This placement offers the least amount of resistance in the string (giving less "point" to the attack) and lets the string vibrate at its widest.

It is important to not pluck directly on the octave. Doing so will activate the harmonic node and give a very weak sound.

The decay is dependent on quite a few things. Unlike bowing, most of the effect here is in reaction to something you've already done. You must plan ahead at the moment of the attack in order to get the decay you want. Placement will make the biggest difference: a long, sustained pizz with lots of air and body is best achieved away from the bridge while a more punctuated, quick-decaying sound will happen closer to the bridge (or, conversely, very close to your left hand).

The motion of your right hand makes a difference. The instrument is designed to have the strings vibrating horizontally to the fingerboard. You allow a much wider range of vibration if you pluck side-to-side rather than "away" from the bass. Think about this if you're hearing fingerboard snaps.

The decay is hugely affected by left hand contact. If your fingered pizzicatos don't sound like your open strings, you don't have enough weight in the string. Adding a little vibrato after the note has begun ringing can extend the decay, depending on the string.

By the way, there really isn't such a thing as an "orchestral pizzicato" as far as I can tell. Every instance of pizzicato has its own context and functions, and your job is to understand what those are and have a palette of functional pizzicato sounds at your disposal.

 

[Les Fret]

By the way, there really isn't such a thing as an "orchestral pizzicato" as far as I can tell.

By 'orchestral pizzicato' the upward motion with the tip of the finger stroke is meant whereas the 'jazz pizzicato' is the more downward in the string pizzicato stroke. I also use these terms for myself although there are many ways to attack the strings especially in jazz.

For the 'orchestral pizz' I would recommend experiencing with both index and middle finger. Both are possible and one is not better than the other. Just see which finger works the best for you.

I use alternating fingers sometimes for fast passages. Does anyone have tips how to handle the weight of the french bow when holding the bow and doing alternate finger 'orchestral pizzicato'? I can do it but the movement of the bow makes it harder and more unstable to play alternating pizz.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

If there's time, I flip my bow around so the back of the stick is more or less against my leg, hold the bow with 3rd and 4th fingers of the right hand against my palm, and then use the rest of my hand for pizz. Works with either bow.

I also agree... there's no such thing as orchestral pizz. Especially, there's no fixed technical difference, every note is different. However, you're often aiming for a very different sound than playing jazz, and so you need to do something different to achieve it.

I basically never pull away from the fingerboard unless I'm deliberately going for snap. Parallel to the fingerboard under that string is the basic direction for all pizz, jazz sounds sometimes require pulling in to the fingerboard if you want growl or mwah, which are seldom called for in the orchestra.

Just like the bow, experiment with the variables; parallel or into the fingerboard and at what angle, how far from the bridge, left hand weight, vibrato (time your vibrato to get a nice mwah, or go the opposite direction to minimise it).

 

[mattgray]

By 'orchestral pizzicato' the upward motion with the tip of the finger stroke is meant whereas the 'jazz pizzicato' is the more downward in the string pizzicato stroke. I also use these terms for myself although there are many ways to attack the strings especially in jazz.

I think Paul's point is more that we should stay away from such generalities, as they breed the idea that all orchestral (and all jazz) music is played in the same exact style.

 

[Les Fret]

Yes, don't want to generalize anything and there are numerous way to play pizz in both styles. But in general people know what you are talking about when saying 'orchestral pizzicato'.

If there's time, I flip my bow around so the back of the stick is more or less against my leg, hold the bow with 3rd and 4th fingers of the right hand against my palm, and then use the rest of my hand for pizz. Works with either bow.

Yes, that works for me too but it is harder to return to arco playing (for me that is) when holding the bow in reverse.

 

[ifg]

Hey gang,

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful advice; really appreciate it and will give all of this a crack tonight. Oh, and regarding genre-generalizations, I'm totally with everyone and of course there are a million different styles, some applicable to both genres. Just didn't want a bunch of jazz-heavies sending me Chris F's excellent video on jazz pizz, and didn't know if there was an official school of thought on pizz in a classical setting.