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Graphite necks w/o truss rods

#21
dlmarquez said:
The excellent Vigier basses, made in France do not have and never have had truss rods.
I think as long as you have a bolt on neck it's not much of an issue because you can shim the neck slightly one way or the other to change the action.
The idea of a non-truss rod neck is very interesting and I wish more manufacturers offered them.
I have heard that Modulus started putting truss rods into their necks not because they were needed, but because the general bass playing public wanted them
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Neck tilt and relief are completely different adjustments for a neck.
 
#22
dlmarquez said:
The excellent Vigier basses, made in France do not have and never have had truss rods.
I think as long as you have a bolt on neck it's not much of an issue because you can shim the neck slightly one way or the other to change the action.
The idea of a non-truss rod neck is very interesting and I wish more manufacturers offered them.
I have heard that Modulus started putting truss rods into their necks not because they were needed, but because the general bass playing public wanted them
Click to expand...

i didn't know that about vigiers, they must have a technique ( probably graphite stiffening rods as well) to make their necks stable. with a wood neck you would still have the potential for problems that simply shimming the neck wouldn't fix. shimming assumes that the neck is straight from the nut to the highest fret ( less relief ). but if the neck bows, either pulling the strings to the fretboard or away from the fretboard shimming would do nothing to relieve this. i had a bass years ago that had a busted truss rod but the neck bow was okay as long as i kept it in a stable environment ( and i was just luck that it was okay ) but if i took it anywhere it was a mess as the neck would bow in a short period of time and make it unplayable.
 
#23
I never understood why one would want to adjust neck relief on a properly set up bass. It's always been my understanding that the action (in terms of string height) should be adjusted at the bridge, not through changing the bow in the neck. My Modulus Q5 has no truss rod, but the relief on it is perfect, about as flat as it can get.

A bass can have a straight neck, and either low or high action. A bass with greater neck relief will need to have higher action to compensate, and will buzz with lower action. Why would a player who prefers high action also prefer a bass with a strongly curved neck when the two need not go hand in hand?
 
#24
Relief changes the feel of the strings, and some people like that spongy feel mid-neck. Also if you use light or flexible strings, you need a bit more relief to allow the strings to vibrate properly. But yes, for the most part you just want a really flat neck. With every Zon I've owned there has been too much relief to set up the way I like.
 
#25
pickles said:
Relief changes the feel of the strings, and some people like that spongy feel mid-neck. Also if you use light or flexible strings, you need a bit more relief to allow the strings to vibrate properly. But yes, for the most part you just want a really flat neck. With every Zon I've owned there has been too much relief to set up the way I like.
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The series 3 Vigiers were designed with a bit of relief in the neck whereas the earlier series 2 basses with full graphite weave necks were designed to have hardly any relief. My #1 was built in 1988 and is straight as an arrow and sounds fantastic. So yes, it depends on the execution, I think.
 
#26
TFunkadelic said:
I never understood why one would want to adjust neck relief on a properly set up bass. It's always been my understanding that the action (in terms of string height) should be adjusted at the bridge, not through changing the bow in the neck. My Modulus Q5 has no truss rod, but the relief on it is perfect, about as flat as it can get.

A bass can have a straight neck, and either low or high action. A bass with greater neck relief will need to have higher action to compensate, and will buzz with lower action. Why would a player who prefers high action also prefer a bass with a strongly curved neck when the two need not go hand in hand?
Click to expand...

no one would have to adjust the relief on a properly set up bass ( it would have been done as part of the process to make it properly set up if required )

this is a quote from the following article:

The single most common misconception is that truss rods are for adjusting action or intonation. While adjusting the truss rod does affect the playing action, that's a side effect and not the purpose for the adjustment. As a general rule, once the nut and truss rod are set, all action adjustment is done at the bridge, by raising or lowering the saddle. Intonation is affected by action, too, so correcting the action may improve intonation, but again, that's a side effect.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

and another article:

Link Removed

if you google neck reilef you'll find a lot of information

i hope this helps
 
#27
I've been playing a fretless Zon Sonus 5 with no truss for about 4 years now and my experience has been that the bass plays great and has kept playing great. The action and tone are even across the board, from the nut to the body joint, and any tweaks can be done at the bridge. I can see why some folks would want the ability to tweak the relief, but you should keep in mind that the truss evolved as a stiffener and a way to compensate for seasonal movement in wood necks. Neither is a problem with a well built/designed composite neck.

One thing that I learned/observed from working on a variety of older guitars, mostly National resonator guitars, is that a well made neck with no truss just sounds amazing. The older nationals with the maple neck and no truss just SING. Not having the neck under compression really does seem to have a positive effect on tone. Maybe not as much of an issue on the Zon, but I'm not arguing with the result.
 
#28
fretlessrock said:
I've been playing a fretless Zon Sonus 5 with no truss for about 4 years now and my experience has been that the bass plays great and has kept playing great. The action and tone are even across the board, from the nut to the body joint, and any tweaks can be done at the bridge. I can see why some folks would want the ability to tweak the relief, but you should keep in mind that the truss evolved as a stiffener and a way to compensate for seasonal movement in wood necks. Neither is a problem with a well built/designed composite neck.

One thing that I learned/observed from working on a variety of older guitars, mostly National resonator guitars, is that a well made neck with no truss just sounds amazing. The older nationals with the maple neck and no truss just SING. Not having the neck under compression really does seem to have a positive effect on tone. Maybe not as much of an issue on the Zon, but I'm not arguing with the result.
Click to expand...


i agree, i have a 1992 zon sonus 4 string fretless and it is unbelievably easy to play. the relief is perfect and the action is really low. and it never moves ( perhaps microscopically ) which is one of the reasons i bought the bass.
 
#29
I've had two Status basses with no trussrod & both have been perfect. You have to remember that the graphite mouldings are strong enough to drive a car over & temperature/humidity/general climate don't affect them at all. The trussrod-less one I have at the moment is nearly 20 years old & is still as straight as it was when new.

Yes, all the current models have trussrods, but I've never had to adjust one. Compared to the Geddy Lee Jazz I had, that's a damned godsend!
 
#30
[
One thing that I learned/observed from working on a variety of older guitars, mostly National resonator guitars, is that a well made neck with no truss just sounds amazing. The older nationals with the maple neck and no truss just SING. Not having the neck under compression really does seem to have a positive effect on tone. Maybe not as much of an issue on the Zon, but I'm not arguing with the result.[/QUOTE]

All I know about this is that my classical guitar which has a neck like a mac truck and no stiffener rod has tone beyond belief.
I DO believe that a neck without a truss rod will sound different, and that different would probably be "better" to my ears.
I'd happily pay a premium for a well designed and constructed wood/carbon neck with no truss rod...
The idea is appealing to me...really resonates with my natural OCD!
 
#31
voodoobassist said:
I owned my Q-5 for approx. 8 or 9 years,..picked it up one day,...felt completely wrong! Checked it out, sure enough, bigtime front bow! It was almost unplayable. Contacted Modulus, established I was the original buyer, sent it back.
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I had almost an identical experience, as cataloged in this thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6552650

Basically my 20-year-old Modulus graphite neck (no truss rod) suddenly & inexplicably developed a tremendous front bow.

voodoobassist said:
They built a new neck for it, explained that the necks on the current models were different from what mine was, recieved my bass approx 3 1/2 months later, complete with "intonation adjustment" tool,...truss rod to us regular folk. Haven't touched the truss rod since I recieved it. Other than a new neck , I was told by the folks at Mod, the only way to correct it, was to plane the fretboard down to even the bow out.
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They told me they would most likely plane the fretboard, didn't even mention replacing the neck as an option. I suspect that's because my older Quantum-6 SPX uses a completely different neck heel than the current Quantum basses. In any event, I just returned the bass last month & haven't yet heard their final diagnostic, so not yet sure what the final outcome will be.

But yes, obviously graphite necks can & do warp.
 
#32
I own three basses with graphite necks...

1990 Zon Legacy Elite 5-string: No truss rod, a little more relief than I would personally like but no issues. In fact, it plays great.

1992 Modulus M92-5: No truss rod. Has a bow. Not terrible, but a little more than the Zon. If I ever get it back from the shop I plan to tune it down a half step which should help a little.

1998 Modulus Q6: has a truss rod. Never touched it, the action is nice and low!

Moral, the one with the truss rod needs no adjustment whatsoever.:hmm:
 
#33
ModuMan said:
Moral, the one with the truss rod needs no adjustment whatsoever.:hmm:
Click to expand...

Yea, I think that is the general idea. Steel doesn't warp, shrink, or expand ... so just putting in the truss rod and bringing it to tension stabilizes the neck. I don't buy the claim that they only added the rods to pander to the market. They had stability problems with the old design. The basic reason a graphite neck will warp is that it is made from dissimilar materials -- graphite and epoxy neck blank and a phenolic or even sometimes wood fingerboard. If those absorb moisture at different rates, or expand or contract differently, then your nice bass just became a thermometer. More expansion in the fingerboard is backbow, less is upbow, and there is also opportunity to twist, which is what happened to mine. All of a sudden the first three notes on the G string were nothing but buzz :(

But then you add a truss rod and drop the neck stiffness (since a truss rod would do next to nothing to those old super-stiff necks), and all of a sudden you don't quite have the same thing anymore. The one Q5 I had with a truss rod had a dead spot :eek: It also had less "impact" and depth to the tone. So it wasn't really what I was looking to graphite to be anymore.

So I don't have any graphite basses anymore. Though if I find a nice sonus with a truss rod I'll probably snap it up and give it a whirl. What I'm into now is a wood neck with a lot of graphite reinforcement. Since the graphite is embedded in the wood, it can't absorb any moisture, so these necks seem to be very very stable over time. I'd also like to try a Genesis sometime.
 
#34
pickles said:
If those absorb moisture at different rates, or expand or contract differently, then your nice bass just became a thermometer. More expansion in the fingerboard is backbow, less is upbow, and there is also opportunity to twist, which is what happened to mine. All of a sudden the first three notes on the G string were nothing but buzz :(

What I'm into now is a wood neck with a lot of graphite reinforcement. Since the graphite is embedded in the wood, it can't absorb any moisture, so these necks seem to be very very stable over time. I'd also like to try a Genesis sometime.
Click to expand...
I'm not aware that the carbon composites used are capable of absorbing moisture. Temperature is surely an issue, but moisture? Wouldn't have thought so.
 
#36
dcr said:
Same thing happened to me with my M92-5. Had a bit more bow than I wanted, so I sold it. Not too bad or even unmanageable, but I couldn't get the action where I wanted it.

dcr
Click to expand...

Same thing happened to me with 2 Zon basses. The necks were stable, but the fingerboards settled thereby increasing the relief. I don't have them anymore and won't buy graphite neck basses without truss rods.
 
#37
My '92 Modulus fretless neckthrough has moved...even w/fairly high action it starts fretting out / buzzing out past the 12th fret. Up to the 12th...it is beautiful. I'm going to send it to Jerry Dorsch as soon as he replies and confirms his shipping address. He's going to plane it down.
It has a rare inlay so I'm a little worried it's going to get damaged. He said he wouldn't know 'til he saw the bass in person.
DSC_0176.gif
 
#38
I have a '92 Modulus Quantum 6spi custom, pre truss rod. When I needed a refret, I found much reluctance on the part of some local luthiers to do the work. They don't seem to like non - adjustable bass necks and phenolic fingerboards. I found a guy who did it, after consulting with Geoff Gould, and it came out fine. Apparently the frets are held in to the phenolic fingerboard with a glue requiring alcohol to loosen, and of course the fingerboard needs to be prepared expertly before installing the new frets.
To give an idea of how strong the neck is on this bass, I once installed a Ken Smith .145 low 'B', and the neck did not deflect at all. Doubtful that a wood neck would behave like that.
I have played several more recent Modulus Quantum basses, with truss rods, and did not like any of them. They seem to have much more mass to them than the old hollow ones. I do like the Modulus Genesis, a graphite - wood hybrid, of which I have a five string.
 
#40
Same deal with my Status bass. Oh, I look after it because I love it, but I also love the fact that it's as tough as hell. I don't need to worry about the neck at all. It's a wonderful assurance, to think even in years to come it will still feel excellent!
 

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