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Guitar as a Bass : Octave question
- Thread starter CeroFrio
- Start date
That, along with the Bass VI suggestion, seems like the easiest way to do this, really. I would probably split the signal - one side to a clean bass amp, the other to a guitar amp with distortion.
For a good example of a song built almost entirely around a riff on a Bass VI (with a tiny bit of keyboards in the background) give Placebo's "Commercial for Levi" a listen. (easily found on youtube, although I will point out that the lyrics are utterly filthy for anyone who's bothered by that sort of thing.)
Another (expensive) option would be something like Chapman Stick or Megatar where you can actually play the bass and melody parts simultaneously.
Well, I did a little filed testing (ie, went to Daddy's Junky Music and tried a few of the suggested pedals, and a baritone guitar (the Fender Bass VI reissue, used).
First off, while that Placebo song sounded nice, the baritone sound is just not what I'm shooting for, so that's out.
Also, simply switching to drop D on the guitar doesn't provide quite enough oomph, IMO, to give a satisfying tone.
For what I want to do, one feed to a guitar amp, and a modulated octave feed to bass amp is the only complete option.
Findings:
I tried out the EHX Micro POG, EHX HOG, Digitech Whammy, and another Boss Super Octave (to compare), and switched back and forth between the four, one at a time into the nice, simple, Ampeg BA 300. I set them all to have the bass tone only, but with all, I'd be able to put a dry signal to guitar amp. And with all, it worked best with a clean, low tone guitar signal. I used a Fender Strat, with Neck and Middle pickup activated.
The Digitech Whammy had the worst results. It freaked out the most when I played multiple strings at the same time. This pedal has it's place, and can do some really crazy stuff, but not turn a guitar chord into a bass tone.
The Micro POG was the simplest. It could go one octave up, one down. I got the best tone when I had the octave down at 2/3 up, and the octave up almost inaudible, and it sort of mimicked the harmonic sound of a bass being hammered down (or that high ting you get when playing the piano). It could handle 3-4 strings from the 5th fret and top 3 strings up, anything lower only 2-3 strings really worked, and full chords sounded awful. But the overall bass tone wasn't great. Very bright and thin, almost tinny.
The Boss Super Octave (OC-3), set to the POLY, had pretty much the same issues as the Micro POG, as far as what you could play. The key difference is instead have one octave up and one down, it just goes down twice. Compared to the Micro POG, it has a much fuller, warmer tone.
All this aside, the EHX HOG, IMO, is the answer to my prayers. On top of being able to do a ton of other stuff (envelope filters, a kill switch, a infinite sustain ability, 3rd and 5th intervals, and expression pedal tricks), it can turn almost any guitar chord into a neat and tidy, hardly muddy bass tone (with a decent chorus pedal, the slight mud can turn into a shimmer, and coupled with a screaming guitar, drums and vocals, will blend in fine with the band overall. It sounds better than the Micro POG, but still isn't quite has lush as the Boss OC-3. The only real issue I have is the price tag, which is over 400, not including the expression pedal. But that just means I'll have to save up a little longer before I can hear how it sounds on my own rig. I'm definitely making the purchase when I can.
If I can get something sounding nice, I'll youtube it and put some demos up. Thanks for everyone's help, and feel free to through in another 2 cents on the subject, I'll be refining this idea as it goes (and if I, god willing, get this band off the ground and earn some gig money from the project, will always want to improve my sound).
Thanks and rock on!
First off, while that Placebo song sounded nice, the baritone sound is just not what I'm shooting for, so that's out.
Also, simply switching to drop D on the guitar doesn't provide quite enough oomph, IMO, to give a satisfying tone.
For what I want to do, one feed to a guitar amp, and a modulated octave feed to bass amp is the only complete option.
Findings:
I tried out the EHX Micro POG, EHX HOG, Digitech Whammy, and another Boss Super Octave (to compare), and switched back and forth between the four, one at a time into the nice, simple, Ampeg BA 300. I set them all to have the bass tone only, but with all, I'd be able to put a dry signal to guitar amp. And with all, it worked best with a clean, low tone guitar signal. I used a Fender Strat, with Neck and Middle pickup activated.
The Digitech Whammy had the worst results. It freaked out the most when I played multiple strings at the same time. This pedal has it's place, and can do some really crazy stuff, but not turn a guitar chord into a bass tone.
The Micro POG was the simplest. It could go one octave up, one down. I got the best tone when I had the octave down at 2/3 up, and the octave up almost inaudible, and it sort of mimicked the harmonic sound of a bass being hammered down (or that high ting you get when playing the piano). It could handle 3-4 strings from the 5th fret and top 3 strings up, anything lower only 2-3 strings really worked, and full chords sounded awful. But the overall bass tone wasn't great. Very bright and thin, almost tinny.
The Boss Super Octave (OC-3), set to the POLY, had pretty much the same issues as the Micro POG, as far as what you could play. The key difference is instead have one octave up and one down, it just goes down twice. Compared to the Micro POG, it has a much fuller, warmer tone.
All this aside, the EHX HOG, IMO, is the answer to my prayers. On top of being able to do a ton of other stuff (envelope filters, a kill switch, a infinite sustain ability, 3rd and 5th intervals, and expression pedal tricks), it can turn almost any guitar chord into a neat and tidy, hardly muddy bass tone (with a decent chorus pedal, the slight mud can turn into a shimmer, and coupled with a screaming guitar, drums and vocals, will blend in fine with the band overall. It sounds better than the Micro POG, but still isn't quite has lush as the Boss OC-3. The only real issue I have is the price tag, which is over 400, not including the expression pedal. But that just means I'll have to save up a little longer before I can hear how it sounds on my own rig. I'm definitely making the purchase when I can.
If I can get something sounding nice, I'll youtube it and put some demos up. Thanks for everyone's help, and feel free to through in another 2 cents on the subject, I'll be refining this idea as it goes (and if I, god willing, get this band off the ground and earn some gig money from the project, will always want to improve my sound).
Thanks and rock on!
Here's another idea I had:
Rather than the HOG, what about this thing:
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=163
I have no idea how it actually sounds, but it will accept a polyphonic input from a GK-2AH pickup. I THINK it has a low note priority function, which would allow you to shift only the lowest note down an octave while playing chords. The downside is obviously that you need the polyphonic pickup for this to work.
Rather than the HOG, what about this thing:
http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=163
I have no idea how it actually sounds, but it will accept a polyphonic input from a GK-2AH pickup. I THINK it has a low note priority function, which would allow you to shift only the lowest note down an octave while playing chords. The downside is obviously that you need the polyphonic pickup for this to work.
I think when you jump from modulated analog sound, to out and out midi based synth, you lose a lot of soul in the resulting sound. Plus I don't really want to put that thing on my guit. It's ugly, IMO.
Okay, here's what you do:
- - Fire the girl.
- - Hire a singer.
- - THEN hire a bass player.
- - Have the singer grow his hair long, blond, and shaggy.
- - Make sure the bass player also plays mellotron.
- - Have the drummer sign an agreement to drink himself to death in 9 years.
- - Learn to play your guitar with a bow.
- - Discover an inability to come up with names for your albums until the 5th one comes out.
I'm telling you, it works! You'll have great success, if not longevity.
That would never get off the ground...
The OC-20G isn't a full on MIDI synth any more than the HOG is, though. Both are digital pitch shifters.
Even in a traditional octave divider pedal, none of the original signal remains in the octave down - they generally turn the input into a square wave, then use that to trigger a set of flip-flops or counter circuit to do the frequency division. Then that signal gets heavily low-passed to turn it into something resembling a sine wave. If there's a fully analog method of doing it, I'd love to see how it works (and I'm not being a smartass here, if it's been done, I'd be VERY curious to learn how).
I can understand not wanting to deal with the hex pickup - could be a real hassle on a guitar that didn't come with one from the factory.
Dammit, you got all sciency on me.
I didn't explain myself well at all, and I really don't have the tech knowledge to back this up, but I feel that when you go from a normal pickup to a good effect, you can retain more soul in your sound than when you resort to the hex pickup.
And what's soul? A lot of things, and nothing at all. I think it's the overall chemistry of the sound, combination of technique, attitude, technology, and personality. I guess if I went with the synth pickup, I'd might as well just switch to the keyboard. The synth pickup just never felt right to me in concept...in my soul.
I'm getting a little deep and off topic...
Are there any success stories of people doing the opposite of what I'm doing?: Using an octave up device to make the bass have a guitar noise?
I use my POG all the time to kind of do this but works best when I play bar chords through a fuzz. Clean tone is completely unconvincing as a guitar though the organ sound is nice. I mainly use the POG to mimic an 8 string bass on fretless but even there, the slight (very) delay in the effected sound bothers me, it kind of adds that "playing in the bathroom" near slapback sound.
Yeah. Usually, the best way to do it is with a digital pitch shifter, generating octaves and/or fifths/fourths/etc. (the common stuff used for chords) above the note you're playing. Add in some distortion, and it sounds much better.
Pedals like the Boss PS-3 and PS-5 can do this. The POG, HOG, and Micro POG can be somewhat useful for this. In fact, there's a pedal (long discontinued) that was built specifically for that purpose: the Akai Unibass.
Generally speaking, none of them sound very natural. But all of them have options for dry outputs... and if you send the dry output to a bass amp, and the wet output to a guitar amp, then you have something far more "authentic" sounding.
Not only expensive, but challenging. Learning to play one of those things is a non-trivial exercise.
My advice to the OP is to forge on ahead with what you've got during your proof-of-concept phase and not to worry too much about the tone of your low end at this point. If the band works, then you can tweak that variable later, or who knows, you may come to love it as it is. It might be part of what makes you unique. It is better to be unique than just about anything else.
This is part of the reason I got the HOG. For my cover band, I'm running the dry out of the HOG to my bass rig, and then the +1, +1.5 and +2 octave signals into a distortion pedal, then into a guitar amp. Voila, I have a rhythm guitarist. I agree with Boo above that if I don't have the distortion on, it sounds weird. Kinda digital and chirpy.
for what its worth, id say - get the Micro Pog and jack up the SUB control (roll off DRY and OCT UP) and run the EFFECT OUT to the bassamp and the CLEAN to your guitar amp (so the MicroPOG acts as your 'Bass'), THEN use an OC3 after it on the POLY mode, and essentially ur bass amp is receiving Bass +octave down, and by mixing the wet and dry signals on the OC3 you should have a super fat bass sound, the fat keyboard sound from the OC3 and the oct down guitar sound from the MicroPOG
yes yes you'd be using two digital octavers one after another (all you analogue fiends will be baying for my blood) so the resulting sound probably wont sound too much like a 'normal' bass, but then again, you have a bass player, so why pretend you have two?
personally i think that the MicroPOG is infinitly more stable and tracks better than the OC3 and that the very dynamically flat output of the POG would be good for the OC3
i reckon that making a bass sound like a guitar is much easier, there is much more technology available (ie effects pedals: Unibass, MicroPOG, POG ect) and while pedals can add intervals like 5th and such, they cant deconstruct a chord just to play a root note, so playing a complex chords on the 'guitar rig' will also come out the 'bass rig' for better or worse.
but i say soldier on, its completely worthy what you're doing, and you're actively encoraging your bass player to play in a new way and not just the traditional supportive role, which i think is great.
oh by the way, josh homme played his guitar through a bass amp in Kyuss (apparently) and both guitar and bass was tuned down to C.
also ive seen a few bands with just guitarist and bassist (played the same bill as Winnebago Deal) and generally the guitarist does what you're doing (bi-amping thru both bass n guitar rigs) and the sound has always been really full to my ears, the only thing ever really missing to me was the single dynamic to parts of the song (cant have lead lines over rhythm guitar, or delicate guitar lines without some element of bass-ness shining thru)
the band im in now didnt have a steady bass player for about 2 years, so the guitarist/singer heavily relied on the HOLD/loop function of his DD6 to provide rhythm behind his lead, he still does, and now he's taken a shine to running thru a bass amp as well as a guitar amp, as well as me running through my bass amp too, and the new DD7 has 40seconds of HOLD/loop time (as opposed to the DD6's 5seconds)
yes yes you'd be using two digital octavers one after another (all you analogue fiends will be baying for my blood) so the resulting sound probably wont sound too much like a 'normal' bass, but then again, you have a bass player, so why pretend you have two?
personally i think that the MicroPOG is infinitly more stable and tracks better than the OC3 and that the very dynamically flat output of the POG would be good for the OC3
i reckon that making a bass sound like a guitar is much easier, there is much more technology available (ie effects pedals: Unibass, MicroPOG, POG ect) and while pedals can add intervals like 5th and such, they cant deconstruct a chord just to play a root note, so playing a complex chords on the 'guitar rig' will also come out the 'bass rig' for better or worse.
but i say soldier on, its completely worthy what you're doing, and you're actively encoraging your bass player to play in a new way and not just the traditional supportive role, which i think is great.
oh by the way, josh homme played his guitar through a bass amp in Kyuss (apparently) and both guitar and bass was tuned down to C.
also ive seen a few bands with just guitarist and bassist (played the same bill as Winnebago Deal) and generally the guitarist does what you're doing (bi-amping thru both bass n guitar rigs) and the sound has always been really full to my ears, the only thing ever really missing to me was the single dynamic to parts of the song (cant have lead lines over rhythm guitar, or delicate guitar lines without some element of bass-ness shining thru)
the band im in now didnt have a steady bass player for about 2 years, so the guitarist/singer heavily relied on the HOLD/loop function of his DD6 to provide rhythm behind his lead, he still does, and now he's taken a shine to running thru a bass amp as well as a guitar amp, as well as me running through my bass amp too, and the new DD7 has 40seconds of HOLD/loop time (as opposed to the DD6's 5seconds)
I just had a thought. I have a feeling that the Boss GT-8 had an octave function that only pitch-shifted notes played on the bottom two strings of your guitar, so you could play chords and you wouldn't end up with the whole chord being shifted. It might be more effects than you want, but it could be worth checking out if it does what you want, and it could replace your other effects as well.
I might be wrong, but it is worth having a look.
I might be wrong, but it is worth having a look.
would it sound adequate if i played bass through a pitch shifter?
let's say i don't wanna detune B to G# and just use the regular A string a detune it to G# and use a pitch shifter.
how would that sound?
thanks
let's say i don't wanna detune B to G# and just use the regular A string a detune it to G# and use a pitch shifter.
how would that sound?
thanks
going at it from a means-to-an-end perspective, yeah something involving an octaver should do it for you.
It's your band and your shtick, so do whatever you want to get the result you want. 'Authentic' is what you make of it, and even if it doesn't sound just like a real bass, it could sound cool nonetheless. Some people think bass started going downhill when Leo rolled the first Pbass off the assembly line because it didn't sound 'authentic.'
It's your band and your shtick, so do whatever you want to get the result you want. 'Authentic' is what you make of it, and even if it doesn't sound just like a real bass, it could sound cool nonetheless. Some people think bass started going downhill when Leo rolled the first Pbass off the assembly line because it didn't sound 'authentic.'
