Guitar humbucker in jazz neck position?

[Gothic]

Hello everyone

So, I have a defretted JB I'm running permanently in series, just one volume knob. The bass sounds fine but lately, I've been considering installing a guitar humbucker in the far neck position, just to add a bit of variety. The logic behind this is, considering this would be a guitar humbucker, it'll probably accentuate the mids and, being in a position so close to the neck, I'd assume it'll be some bass/lower mids added to the tone and considering that I play alongside two guitars, extra mids would certainly be welcome!

Has anyone done this? Is my logic wrong? Please chime in.

By the way, I'm also thinking of using an invader pickup and "stealthing" it under the pickguard. I'm guessing it's powerful enough to both not impede its magnetic pull being so low and also not overpowering the other pickups, although being in series, they're at a pretty powerful output level themselves (I think it's about 14somethingk).

Also, wiring wise, I'm thinking about just adding that in series, with a switch to just switch it on or off.

 

[Zoobiedood]

I have to say, I haven't tried either of these things, so if you do, report back. Even with a loud, powerful, Invader, it might sound pretty muddy and indistinct below a pickguard- it is a pretty mid-heavy pickup to begin with, but this might make it super middy. I don't know, as I've not tried this. As far as the neck pickup, you can get a humbucker that accentuates any frequencies you want, really. I'd go with something with either rails or big poles to 'hear' the strings better.

 

[Gothic]

Well the invader would be the far neck pickup, I'll be leaving the twin J's as they are now. I do have another, more PAF-y guitar humbucker I can use, so I guess I could swap'em out and try them both, but considering it'll most likely be under the pickguard, I'm thinking the more powerful invader with the hex poles will probably be a better choice.

I'd honestly have no issue with it showing but I find plastic pickguards a b$#$c to hack up so I'd really rather not mess with that, to be honest! I could probably ditch the pickguard altogether, to be honest, since the pickups cavities are pretty tightly router and I can install the humbucker with a ring but I quite like the pickguard (plus, I'd have to drill a tiny channel from that cavity to the next one over to get the cables to the control cavity and I don't think I'd manage that too well!).

 

[Gothic]

So, quick question about the wiring.

I have one of those:

Which is from a vehicle, it's a push/pull on/off switch. How can I wire that exactly?

I've never used one of those before, so my assumption is, the lead from the new pickup goes to one terminal, ground goes to star ground and a wire from the other terminal goes to the "hot" prong on the vol. knob. Is that right?

 

[Gothic]

Ok, I got it working with the switch but ran into another problem. With the extra guitar humbucker engaged, the output actually drops (significantly), and while signal comes from all three pickups, the sound is thin, tinny and anemic. With the humbucker disengaged, it's back to goodness. I'm assuming this is because the switch "forces" the connection of the three (or to be more precise, the two J's acting as one plus the guitar humbucker) to be in parallel while what I wanted was for the humbucker to be wired in series with the twin J's (which are in series as well), so all three would work together.

So, new question. Can I have all pickups in series and the option to disengage the guitar humbucker with what I've got now or is hardwiring them all in series the only solution?

Also, sorry for all the posts, it's an ongoing process!

 

[Axstar]

Ok, I got it working with the switch but ran into another problem. With the extra guitar humbucker engaged, the output actually drops (significantly), and while signal comes from all three pickups, the sound is thin, tinny and anemic. With the humbucker disengaged, it's back to goodness. I'm assuming this is because the switch "forces" the connection of the three (or to be more precise, the two J's acting as one plus the guitar humbucker) to be in parallel while what I wanted was for the humbucker to be wired in series with the twin J's (which are in series as well), so all three would work together.

So, new question. Can I have all pickups in series and the option to disengage the guitar humbucker with what I've got now or is hardwiring them all in series the only solution?

Also, sorry for all the posts, it's an ongoing process!

Probably a phase issue or you are mixing pickup impedances... maybe both. The lower impedance pickups (the Js in parallel) will overwhelm the higher impedance guitar pickup you've installed.

 

[Gothic]

Well, I gave up on that switch since it was nothing more than a "circuit breaker" and wired it up according to WalterW's schematic for two pickups in series with dual volumes. Everything works as it should, granted, but with the added bonus of noise, that wasn't there before.
I'd shielded the bass, everything's fine, I re-did some spots, checked and got continuity everywhere and yet, I still have noise/hum from the J's.
Curiously (or perhaps not so much...) the guitar humbucker is dead quiet. It's the J's that bring the noise and that's even more curious, considering I'd solved that before by doing the shielding. I have no idea what that's about but I'm just about done with the thing for now.

Another awesome discovery, while trying to shield the new humbucker cavity, I found out that, when the pickguard shielding touches, well, everything, the J's short out. Actually, whenever the foil from the humbucker's cavity touches the foil from the J's cavity, the J's short out. No sound, nothing. And I can't figure out why, so I made sure they're not touching, and now I'm left with just noise from the J's.

 

[micguy]

Guitar pickups are wound with more variability in impedance than bass pickups - a Stratocaster pickup would be rather anemic and thin sounding in a bass. On the fiip side, some of the pickups that are used to overdrive the snot out of an amp will sound dull in a bass. So...generalization isn't useful - there are probably some guitar pickups that work well in a bass (some of the Fender Broncos and such actually use a guitar pickup disguised under a cover). So, putting a guitar pickup in a bass - it's an experiment - not guaranteed to succeed, but it might.

 

[micguy]

Well, I gave up on that switch since it was nothing more than a "circuit breaker" and wired it up according to WalterW's schematic for two pickups in series with dual volumes. Everything works as it should, granted, but with the added bonus of noise, that wasn't there before.
I'd shielded the bass, everything's fine, I re-did some spots, checked and got continuity everywhere and yet, I still have noise/hum from the J's.
Curiously (or perhaps not so much...) the guitar humbucker is dead quiet. It's the J's that bring the noise and that's even more curious, considering I'd solved that before by doing the shielding. I have no idea what that's about but I'm just about done with the thing for now.

Another awesome discovery, while trying to shield the new humbucker cavity, I found out that, when the pickguard shielding touches, well, everything, the J's short out. Actually, whenever the foil from the humbucker's cavity touches the foil from the J's cavity, the J's short out. No sound, nothing. And I can't figure out why, so I made sure they're not touching, and now I'm left with just noise from the J's.

That's a lot of observations - my guess is you have a polarity problem. Thin sound with multiple pickups engaged means they'd probably sound fuller if you re-wire one of them - flip the connections. It might also solve your "shorting" issue - connecting grounds to each other shouldn't short out signal, but if one of the pickups is reverse wired and connected to the shield, yes, it could very well do that.

 

[Axstar]

Well, I gave up on that switch since it was nothing more than a "circuit breaker" and wired it up according to WalterW's schematic for two pickups in series with dual volumes. Everything works as it should, granted, but with the added bonus of noise, that wasn't there before.
I'd shielded the bass, everything's fine, I re-did some spots, checked and got continuity everywhere and yet, I still have noise/hum from the J's.
Curiously (or perhaps not so much...) the guitar humbucker is dead quiet. It's the J's that bring the noise and that's even more curious, considering I'd solved that before by doing the shielding. I have no idea what that's about but I'm just about done with the thing for now.

Another awesome discovery, while trying to shield the new humbucker cavity, I found out that, when the pickguard shielding touches, well, everything, the J's short out. Actually, whenever the foil from the humbucker's cavity touches the foil from the J's cavity, the J's short out. No sound, nothing. And I can't figure out why, so I made sure they're not touching, and now I'm left with just noise from the J's.

The J pickups will have hookup wires blob-soldered at one end of the coil. The blob for the hot wire may be touching the shielding. The noise issue sounds like part of the same problem.

Do you have a photo of this 3-pickup beast?

 

[Axstar]

Guitar pickups are wound with more variability in impedance than bass pickups - a Stratocaster pickup would be rather anemic and thin sounding in a bass. On the fiip side, some of the pickups that are used to overdrive the snot out of an amp will sound dull in a bass. So...generalization isn't useful - there are probably some guitar pickups that work well in a bass (some of the Fender Broncos and such actually use a guitar pickup disguised under a cover). So, putting a guitar pickup in a bass - it's an experiment - not guaranteed to succeed, but it might.

Fender Musicmaster basses had a Strat pickup installed, with the poles flush with the flat work and a blanked-off cover applied.

Guitar pickups don't filter off bass frequencies so they work perfectly well in basses, though I would rather use a rail pickup than bodge 6 or 12 poles under four strings.

 

[Gothic]

That's a lot of observations - my guess is you have a polarity problem. Thin sound with multiple pickups engaged means they'd probably sound fuller if you re-wire one of them - flip the connections. It might also solve your "shorting" issue - connecting grounds to each other shouldn't short out signal, but if one of the pickups is reverse wired and connected to the shield, yes, it could very well do that.

Nah, I checked the polarity both with the pickups themselves, before I installed the new one and I swapped the wires around as well, nothing changed. It must've been the switch since it's working fine (well, relatively speaking) with the pot instead of the switch.

The J pickups will have hookup wires blob-soldered at one end of the coil. The blob for the hot wire may be touching the shielding. The noise issue sounds like part of the same problem.

Do you have a photo of this 3-pickup beast?

Well, I thought of that but there's a piece of foam under the pickup so it sits above the shielding foil so I don't think it touches. Won't hurt to check though.

The bass is the one in my avatar, this:



Just with an extra pot, nothing fancy. The humbucker's hidden under the pickguard and it's thankfully powerful enough to be a pretty spot on match with the twin J's. Seems to be picking up every string equally well, too, so no problems there.

Thanks again for all the replies!

edit: by the way, the noise/hum I'm talking about is the kind that stops by touching the bridge (or control cavity cover, tuning pegs, anything metal really). Which points to shielding issues, and that's why I'm baffled, because the bass IS shielded!

Another thing it did not do before, though. Touching the pole pieces introduces more hum.

 

[ctmullins]

Guitar pickups are wound with more variability in impedance than bass pickups

Is this true? Isn't there a huge difference between the impedance of a Gibson mudbucker and the impedance of a MusicMan dual-coil?

a Stratocaster pickup would be rather anemic and thin sounding in a bass. On the fiip side, some of the pickups that are used to overdrive the snot out of an amp will sound dull in a bass.

Totally agree with the "dull" comment. I like a tone full of clarity and sparkle, and an overwound pickup takes that away. I just put a L45-S at the neck position on a fretless; it sounds amazing.

 

[micguy]

Is this true? Isn't there a huge difference between the impedance of a Gibson mudbucker and the impedance of a MusicMan dual-coil?

A Gibson Mudbucker has tens of Henries of inductance (I forget the exact value). I don't know MusicMan dual coils that well, but there are guitar pickups that are under a Henry in inductance. Most (not all) bass pickups are in the range of 3 to 6 Henries. If you want to combine two pickups, the inductance difference is something you need to consider. In many basses, the bridge pickups is wound hotter (more turns) than the neck pickup. While that helps balance the output if you switch from one to the other, if you combine them, the neck pickup has the advantage of more string excursion, and its lower impedance also means it "wins" more of the mix if combined in parallel.

One thing Leo did right on his second (or was that third?) time was that a Jazz bass is wound with the same inductance on both pickups - you balance the pickups' outputs by moving the bridge pickup closer to the strings, and when you mix them, they each get half of the mix.

 

[ctmullins]

Ah. I thought you were talking about impedance.

 

[Gothic]

Soooooo... after too much headscratching, an infinity of swapping wires around, some very refreshing cursing and again, much, much headscratching, I have solved my problem!

Since I'd all but given up on the thing, I decided f- it, I'm just gonna hardwire all three in series and go with the flow. I went ahead and tried to finalize the new guitar humbucker's shielding job, when, after removing and placing the pickup on the lower horn to tidy up in there, the buzzing stopped (luckily, the bass was still plugged in)!

Long story short, the guitar humbucker didn't take too kindly to shielding. I removed ALL the foil in its cavity, kept the rest as it was, wired it back according to WalterW's schematic for 2 pickups with individual volumes again and lo and behold, no noise, no hum, everything works fine!

Who would've thought!

Thanks once again for taking the time to chime in. I'll post a couple of soundclips if anyone's interested in the result.

 

[ctmullins]

Yes please - I am always interested in experiences with using guitar pickups on a bass!!

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

Hello everyone

So, I have a defretted JB I'm running permanently in series, just one volume knob. The bass sounds fine but lately, I've been considering installing a guitar humbucker in the far neck position, just to add a bit of variety. The logic behind this is, considering this would be a guitar humbucker, it'll probably accentuate the mids and, being in a position so close to the neck, I'd assume it'll be some bass/lower mids added to the tone and considering that I play alongside two guitars, extra mids would certainly be welcome!

Has anyone done this? Is my logic wrong? Please chime in.

By the way, I'm also thinking of using an invader pickup and "stealthing" it under the pickguard. I'm guessing it's powerful enough to both not impede its magnetic pull being so low and also not overpowering the other pickups, although being in series, they're at a pretty powerful output level themselves (I think it's about 14somethingk).

Also, wiring wise, I'm thinking about just adding that in series, with a switch to just switch it on or off.

Find an older blade style as opposed to pole pieces.

You might find less dead spots seeing the pole pieces won't be lining up?

 

[Gothic]

Ok, so I do have another problem, the volume pot for the extra pickup works fine but the volume for the two J's just doesn't do anything. Oh well, it works so I'll take a look at it another day.
For now, here's a clip with the different sounds. Oddly enough (or perhaps not, I don't know!) the "thinner", more midrangey sounding one is with the guitar humbucker engaged.

Reminder for the wiring in case anyone's missed it. The two J's were already wired in series, the guitar humbucker is also added in series but has its own vol. pot.

Here's the clip, excuse the sloppy playing, it's just for demo'ing purposes. It's got a fingerstyle part as well as a picked part. I don't slap. Straight into the usb interface, running through a vst ampeg or some similar amp, everything at the mid point.