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Guitard voicing his opinions on next amp purchase
- Thread starter totallybacan
- Start date
Well, we were talking today about options, and quite frankly, i left p!@#ed of. I couldn't stand listening to him or his friend acting as if they knew. What follows should by no means be taken as a joke 
(I'm quoting this exactly as was written before we met in person)
Guitard:12's in bass amps you have to be kinda careful about the construction. Sometimes it'll just sound really muddy and just all around bad. haha.
Me: Umm, I've seen and heard some really good ones
Guitard: 410's are probably the best cabs for rock. They're ridiculously responsive to high frequencies and still can punch out some great low end.
I'm not a fan of 210's but anything more than a 410 is amazing... if it's built right.
Me: Idk, i really do like 12's and 15's because they're ideal frequency response tends to go lower
Guitard: Yea, but you don't need massive low end unless you're playing crazy hiphop, dub, or reggae. And even most of those bassists use 10's.
I saw Dub Trio a few months ago and they used a 810. Their music is nothing but subby bass and power guitars.
Me: I don't doubt that they used 10's, but i'm just saying that acccording to the specs on the ampeg website, they don't even hit a fundamental low e without a decibel decrease.
Guitard: not with the new classic series, but with most Ampeg cabs like the SVT cabs can pretty handle anything which is why so many bands and people use them. And as long as you have a good head you'll have as much low end as you need.
Me: I'm sure that a head can only influence the low end to an extent. if you boost the eq on the low side you're bound to drive the power amp and/or cause farting.
At this point his friend chimes in that he will take a neutral approach.
Friend: what kinds of speakers do you like?
Me: of the few I've owned and tried, Definitely a 412 or or 215. and portability is a big factor. so having them split into 2 is great.
Friend: ampegggggg
Me: considering i started off playing jazz, i can't see how you can go wrong with 15s or 12s
Friend: 12's are for guitar, 15's are alright but less clean and responsive.
Me (at this point i get mad): how the hell are they for guitar? They're as common as 15
Friend: I can't say I've seen more than a handful of bass cabs with 12 inch speakers, while almost every guitar amp I've seen does
Me: It doesn't matter what guitarists use. think of the bassman 410. did it sound bad when guitarists tried "bass" speakers?
Friend: it's whatever sounds best to you though, but dakota john [my band] isn't jazz
Guitard: 12's are usually used for guitar because they're really hard to tune for bass frequencies without sounding muddy.
Ridiculous. I've lost all respect for them when it comes to their advice. Ampeg? Seriously? That's the first thing that comes to mind when they think of amps? I didn't even bother including the conversation about him thinking that fender amps are horrible and almost as bad as (gulp) eden.
(I'm quoting this exactly as was written before we met in person)
Guitard:12's in bass amps you have to be kinda careful about the construction. Sometimes it'll just sound really muddy and just all around bad. haha.
Me: Umm, I've seen and heard some really good ones
Guitard: 410's are probably the best cabs for rock. They're ridiculously responsive to high frequencies and still can punch out some great low end.
I'm not a fan of 210's but anything more than a 410 is amazing... if it's built right.
Me: Idk, i really do like 12's and 15's because they're ideal frequency response tends to go lower
Guitard: Yea, but you don't need massive low end unless you're playing crazy hiphop, dub, or reggae. And even most of those bassists use 10's.
I saw Dub Trio a few months ago and they used a 810. Their music is nothing but subby bass and power guitars.
Me: I don't doubt that they used 10's, but i'm just saying that acccording to the specs on the ampeg website, they don't even hit a fundamental low e without a decibel decrease.
Guitard: not with the new classic series, but with most Ampeg cabs like the SVT cabs can pretty handle anything which is why so many bands and people use them. And as long as you have a good head you'll have as much low end as you need.
Me: I'm sure that a head can only influence the low end to an extent. if you boost the eq on the low side you're bound to drive the power amp and/or cause farting.
At this point his friend chimes in that he will take a neutral approach.
Friend: what kinds of speakers do you like?
Me: of the few I've owned and tried, Definitely a 412 or or 215. and portability is a big factor. so having them split into 2 is great.
Friend: ampegggggg
Me: considering i started off playing jazz, i can't see how you can go wrong with 15s or 12s
Friend: 12's are for guitar, 15's are alright but less clean and responsive.
Me (at this point i get mad): how the hell are they for guitar? They're as common as 15
Friend: I can't say I've seen more than a handful of bass cabs with 12 inch speakers, while almost every guitar amp I've seen does
Me: It doesn't matter what guitarists use. think of the bassman 410. did it sound bad when guitarists tried "bass" speakers?
Friend: it's whatever sounds best to you though, but dakota john [my band] isn't jazz
Guitard: 12's are usually used for guitar because they're really hard to tune for bass frequencies without sounding muddy.
Ridiculous. I've lost all respect for them when it comes to their advice. Ampeg? Seriously? That's the first thing that comes to mind when they think of amps? I didn't even bother including the conversation about him thinking that fender amps are horrible and almost as bad as (gulp) eden.
That's solid advice right there. If you're paying for it, you buy what you want.
how noticeable is the difference in volume between 2 115's and 2 212's? As of right now, i'm going with one of these, even though i'm leaning more towards the 212 approach
12s are louder, beleive it or not. I wouldn't worry though, just get what sounds best.
Tone > Volume, I use a 220 watt amp for a reason, even though I sometimes struggle to be heard.
Tone > Volume, I use a 220 watt amp for a reason, even though I sometimes struggle to be heard.
Oh.
This isn't easy stuff - you're dealing with biases in perception based on data that's not grounded in research. That happens all the time. How do you think politicians work?
So, what are you to do?
Two options; go with the flow and obtain an Ampeg 810, or try and introduce an option based on your research. Here's the consequences - the Ampeg isn't the easiest thing to move, and the tone is what it is, the 2x12 will not get as loud, plus the "I told you so" factor from the guitarist. If you introduce anything outside of his solution, you've got to be ready to fight the fight.
The methods that might work for introducing an option other than what the guitarist is thinking is to ask him to focus on what his tone goals are for you. That then forces you to bring alternatives to try in practice. It is an uphill fight when you're up against established perceptions.
Politics are an inescapable aspect to making decisions.
This isn't easy stuff - you're dealing with biases in perception based on data that's not grounded in research. That happens all the time. How do you think politicians work?
So, what are you to do?
Two options; go with the flow and obtain an Ampeg 810, or try and introduce an option based on your research. Here's the consequences - the Ampeg isn't the easiest thing to move, and the tone is what it is, the 2x12 will not get as loud, plus the "I told you so" factor from the guitarist. If you introduce anything outside of his solution, you've got to be ready to fight the fight.
The methods that might work for introducing an option other than what the guitarist is thinking is to ask him to focus on what his tone goals are for you. That then forces you to bring alternatives to try in practice. It is an uphill fight when you're up against established perceptions.
Politics are an inescapable aspect to making decisions.
Part of what they're saying is based in fact. It's true that the new 810's have very low response. The speakers themselves do 40 hz, but the tradeoff is that there's no high end. So they're nuts if they think you're going to get brightness out of a new Ampeg 810e or 410 unless it comes from the tweeter (blecch). But the only reason guitarists mostly use 12"s and bassists mostly use 10"s and 15"s is because a lot of famous people used them and made them popular. Back in the 50's, 15"s were way more common for guitar for the same reason.
So you guys are at a Mexican standoff...got a good band, got some guys who like your playing, but they want you to play stuff you don't like. If you had the stuff already, I'd tell you to play the stuff you don't like, but you don't. And I would never tell you to buy the rig they want you to play unless you yourself wanted it.
So here's what you need to say...
"When Iggy Pop hired Mike Watt for the Stooges reunion, he made Watt use SVT/810e's, but he also rented them for him. So if you want me to use a 410 or 810, you need to buy it or rent it for me and I'll use it. Otherwise, I'm going to take my own money and buy the rig that I think gets the job done the best way I know how, and if you guys think I'm going to buy a rig that screws the sound of the band, then why did you ask me to join in the first place?"
Then punch the leader square in the jaw...just kidding, don't do that
I will say, though, don't be fooled about this nonsense about needing a cab that does 40 hz or below. Very often, those freqs just create mud. The old SVT 810 didn't do 40 hz or anything close to it, yet even when I play a 5-string through it, it sounds massive but never muddy. The power of the bass that gives it that punch in the nutsack is all between 125-200 hz. Most of the time, the house will roll off the bass below 60 hz just to keep it from interfering with the bass drum, too. So that's why the Ampeg 810 worked so well until they botched it up with these low end mud-monsters.
So you guys are at a Mexican standoff...got a good band, got some guys who like your playing, but they want you to play stuff you don't like. If you had the stuff already, I'd tell you to play the stuff you don't like, but you don't. And I would never tell you to buy the rig they want you to play unless you yourself wanted it.
So here's what you need to say...
"When Iggy Pop hired Mike Watt for the Stooges reunion, he made Watt use SVT/810e's, but he also rented them for him. So if you want me to use a 410 or 810, you need to buy it or rent it for me and I'll use it. Otherwise, I'm going to take my own money and buy the rig that I think gets the job done the best way I know how, and if you guys think I'm going to buy a rig that screws the sound of the band, then why did you ask me to join in the first place?"
Then punch the leader square in the jaw...just kidding, don't do that
I will say, though, don't be fooled about this nonsense about needing a cab that does 40 hz or below. Very often, those freqs just create mud. The old SVT 810 didn't do 40 hz or anything close to it, yet even when I play a 5-string through it, it sounds massive but never muddy. The power of the bass that gives it that punch in the nutsack is all between 125-200 hz. Most of the time, the house will roll off the bass below 60 hz just to keep it from interfering with the bass drum, too. So that's why the Ampeg 810 worked so well until they botched it up with these low end mud-monsters.
Good points as always JimmyM. The original Ampeg 810 rolled off at 80Hz if I remember correctly and pretty much useless at a fund. E (42Hz). They were known to project not just rumble the stage with flab. I've always enjoyed the sound of 12"s but untill recently they were not able to handle high power.
Relating to the question earlier about the sound difference between a 115 and a 212 -
Lets look at one factor, and assume all other factors are the same - square inches of air moved.
A 15" speaker moves (pi)7.5^2 or 56.25 (I didn't actually multiply pi because I am going to use the same equation for the 212 and the pi would just cancel on both sides.)
One 12" speaker moves (pi)6^2 = 36 square inches. But since there are two of them, it adds up to 72 square inches which is about 28% larger (comparatively) to the single 15" speaker.
Not taking into consideration any tonal variations which may influence the "amount of sound" heard or felt, the 212 is about 28% "louder".
However, since the singe 15" speaker usually has a deeper lower end, many people can't tell the difference in sound because the 15" is typically "felt, not heard" (in a full band setting that is, by yourself its pretty thumping).
Then again, I could just be making this all up...I'm actually not really certain, it just seems to make sense to me.
Lets look at one factor, and assume all other factors are the same - square inches of air moved.
A 15" speaker moves (pi)7.5^2 or 56.25 (I didn't actually multiply pi because I am going to use the same equation for the 212 and the pi would just cancel on both sides.)
One 12" speaker moves (pi)6^2 = 36 square inches. But since there are two of them, it adds up to 72 square inches which is about 28% larger (comparatively) to the single 15" speaker.
Not taking into consideration any tonal variations which may influence the "amount of sound" heard or felt, the 212 is about 28% "louder".
However, since the singe 15" speaker usually has a deeper lower end, many people can't tell the difference in sound because the 15" is typically "felt, not heard" (in a full band setting that is, by yourself its pretty thumping).
Then again, I could just be making this all up...I'm actually not really certain, it just seems to make sense to me.
Well here's what I did, went in and killed everybody... Spent 30 years in max security, got out and am now starting my own band. Sure taught those goofs a lesson they won't ever forget eh? 
Get to pick my own gear now.
No matter what Jimmy says and I agree for the most part. BUT, get yourself an AMPEG 810, and I wouldn't be afraid to stick a 4PRO on top and blow those guys RIGHT OFF THE STAGE.
BOB
Get to pick my own gear now.No matter what Jimmy says and I agree for the most part. BUT, get yourself an AMPEG 810, and I wouldn't be afraid to stick a 4PRO on top and blow those guys RIGHT OFF THE STAGE.
BOB
looks like the 810rbx is looking like a good option. seems like a pain to move anything bigger than 410 or 212, i'm a college student so my old rig will have to be completely gone in order to make room for my new one.
off topic, but i like your band
Thanks! This saturday is our last show for a bit while we write new songs. And friday i SHOULD recieve my new tribute L2000 that i got from a fellow tb'er. I'm excited for what the future has in store for us
Well, you're wrong about the 15" being felt and not heard. I use them and I hear and feel them just fine.
Your guitarist is an idiot, hence the name guitard. If he knew anything about this stuff at all he'd know that the size of the cone has little or nothing to do with what it sounds like and unless he's paying for the rig, his input should be ignored.
