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Double Bass Gut or gut sounding with more tension?

Innovation Super Silvers might be an answer for this... Or Eurosonics, synthetics which have a steel core, available in many tensions. Although neither of these strings are targeted as hybrids for both pizz and arco.

Did you try Tempera Hybrids, either their standard or the thick ones? They have a reputation for lower than normal steel tension, and sounding gut-like.

Pirastro (corrected) Perpetuals are available in standard or thick now too... I've read folks describe them as feeling like they have lower tension than normal steel.

Wabbit hole time. :D
 
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Hey folks! Apologies, I realize this has probably been mentioned before, but here goes again :laugh: Does anyone have any opinions or experience with gut or gut like strings that have a little more tension?Obviously less than steel but maybe more in line with Evah weichs or Holstein Heritage? Thanks in advance!
The laws of physics dictate that the pitch of a bowed or plucked string depends on three things - mass, tension, and length - and length is a given for a particular instrument. Therefore, to achieve more tension, mass must be increased. That's a challenge for a plain gut string without increasing its gauge, but a little easier for a wrapped gut string or a synthetic-material string.

The Tempera strings have more tension than guts and less tension than the strings you mention, and have some similarity in sound to guts. If you don't care about bowing, Innovation "Rock-a-Billy" are fairly decent. Then, there are the Evah Gold "slaps." Of course, there are the "dirty guts" that @Don Hergert espouses; I have no experience with them, but maybe Don will weigh in.
 
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Thank you Andy, regarding Perps, yea, I goofed up the name (corrected now)... The thicker Perps version is on my watch list, so I thought I'd mention them. Do you have specific experience with them?

Regarding SBW Deluxe Dirty Guts, I'm using their thickest and heaviest tension full set now and like them a lot, but I'd rate them as only slightly higher tension than Innovation SilverSlaps or Aquila Sugar Slaps, which are both usually considered on the low tension side. I think Brent is looking for higher tension than those.
 
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There’s Sonores strings. Handmade Strings by Gerold Genssler
Which are quite gut sounding. If you look at the string program anything “middle” tension will be between gut and steel string tensions. And his BoM plain gut (not real gut, so better stability, less arco nasality too) is also listed at middle tension.


The Tempera strings are less gut like sounding and I think they state are 24kp per string on their website.

Sonores and Tempera are both excellent strings but they are high dollar…even moreso now that the usd has fallen against the euro.

The Perpetuals feel nice and supple since they are extremely flexible. But they aren’t really gut sounding, though the stark d sounds good next to an Oliv g.
And the a/e sounded pretty good next to my Sonores Helix g/d (metal wrapped strings).

I imagine there other strings out there I don’t have experience with. Zyex maybe?!?
 
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Thanks for your thoughts folks. I’ll say this to what has been discussed so far… Perpetuals are great strings, but they are steel and their tension is in line with other steel strings. Evah slaps are cool too but are quite low in tension (pretty similar to actual guts in my experience). Is there anything in the middle (tension wise) of these two? Cheers!
 
How much more tension? Excepting vintage strings, the highest-tension guts I’ve played have been Pirastro’s Carlos Henriquez signature set. They’re fat and low-twist, as opposed to Gamut which are more supple.
What’s totally weird is that the Pirastro website says the CH strings are lower tension than the regular Chordas. Manufacturer descriptions often make no sense!
 
Thanks for your thoughts folks. I’ll say this to what has been discussed so far… Perpetuals are great strings, but they are steel and their tension is in line with other steel strings. Evah slaps are cool too but are quite low in tension (pretty similar to actual guts in my experience). Is there anything in the middle (tension wise) of these two? Cheers!

Are referring to plain gut tension?

I think Evah slaps are about 18-21kg
Chordas about 1kg higher than ^

Oliv about 26-28kg
Perpetuals also about 26-28kg

Pirastro Eudoxa gut has a 28.8kg g string.

In the middle of the plain gut and metal wrapped gut..Tempera and the Sonores middle tension sets.
 
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Arco or pizzicato?

For very old school orchestral gauges of gut and how they're supposed to behave, there have been a few different posts on the topic. Some of them even by me. That last one talks about use both under the bow and just plucking, although says they wouldn't be quite as useful for a lot of jazz stuff. If you look a little bit down, jneuman mentions going for gauges that would offer a bit more intermediate tension (closer to detuned solo steel strings) with a 2.5mm G and 3.2mm D, which is exactly what I found recommended in that scan of the old Milushkin double bass method.
 
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Thanks for your thoughts folks. I’ll say this to what has been discussed so far… Perpetuals are great strings, but they are steel and their tension is in line with other steel strings. Evah slaps are cool too but are quite low in tension (pretty similar to actual guts in my experience). Is there anything in the middle (tension wise) of these two? Cheers!
Gamut plain guts come in gauges from light to heavy plus. For firmness, I would suggest the Lyon type. I have no experience with varnished strings. Efrano guts come in light-med-heavy.
 
Arco or pizzicato?

For very old school orchestral gauges of gut and how they're supposed to behave, there have been a few different posts on the topic. Some of them even by me. That last one talks about use both under the bow and just plucking, although says they wouldn't be quite as useful for a lot of jazz stuff. If you look a little bit down, jneuman mentions going for gauges that would offer a bit more intermediate tension (closer to detuned solo steel strings) with a 2.5mm G and 3.2mm D, which is exactly what I found recommended in that scan of the old Milushkin double bass method.

Do have a scan of the Milushkin book you can share? the old link is gone.

Also, Gamut Red Diamonds G and D are varnished strings now, no nylon wrap, and are the same gauges with the D string a little thicker.
 
Do have a scan of the Milushkin book you can share? the old link is gone.

The one that's linked to in that first post I linked there still works for me. It even mentions an (overwound) C string of 6-6.5mm! Not entirely sure what to think about that one.

I will note, that's the third edition Milushkin book, and older editions might have had larger gauges yet listed. It's also talking about a string length of only around 89-90 cm, but while I can't find them right now, other old method books I've found scans of that actually listed string gauges were both talking about more adult sized instruments and, depending on time and place, either fell in line with what become common here around the 40s and 50s or line up with what some others have talked about on here in being almost a reverse-bumped set (use an A string for a D, use a D string for a G, you get the picture).

Most of them don't list specific gauges, and fall more in line with the Invalid Link Removed (12th page in, "Les Choix des Cordes") I just looked at a little bit ago—"don't go too thin or too thick, but solo strings can preferably be thinner than your orchestra strings because they should be faster and easier to play on, but don't go too big on your orchestra strings because you still want to conserve your agility and have a big sound." Or, as he put it:

Le cordes ne doivent etre, ni trop fines, ni trop grosses; trop grosses elle sont plus difficiles a mettre en vibration, donnent un son lorde, et sont generalement moins justes; trop fines, elles ont un sonorite grele et "fouettent" plus facilement sur la touche. Cependant pour la musique de chambre ou le "Solo" les cordes fine sont preferables, car l'attaque en est plus facile et surtout plus instantanee, mais pour l'Orchestre ou l'on doit chercher a obtenir une plus grand sonorite, tout en conservant l'agilite, il vaut mieux en choisir de moyennes; l'important est surtout de les prendre bien en rapport entre-elles.

I hope all the French speakers of the site can forgive me for not brushing up on my alt key codes to get all the little diacritics while I was rewriting the whole thing.

Then, you get around to 1939 here in the states, and like I said, you hit closer to "modern" gauges (from Oscar Zimmerman's method, specifically):

It is advisable that the length of the strings, from the bridge to the nut, be 41 inches. The gauge of the strings should be as follows: G-string 40°, D-string 60°, A-string 55°, and E-string 70°. It is best to have the G- and D-strings of gut, and the A- and E-strings of aluminum-wound gut. The bridge should not be too high, but just high enough so that the strings, when played, do not hit the fingerboard and cause a buzzing sound.

The only gauge measurement I can find that makes sense with those numbers is Pirazzi meter, which would have been introduced by that time, I think. That gives you a 2mm G, 3mm D, 2.75mm overwound A, and 3.5mm E. Still a bit on the heavier side for some of those, but a lot more in line with what a lot of us are used to, I'd imagine.
 
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Thank you Andy, regarding Perps, yea, I goofed up the name (corrected now)... The thicker Perps version is on my watch list, so I thought I'd mention them. Do you have specific experience with them?

Regarding SBW Deluxe Dirty Guts, I'm using their thickest and heaviest tension full set now and like them a lot, but I'd rate them as only slightly higher tension than Innovation SilverSlaps or Aquila Sugar Slaps, which are both usually considered on the low tension side. I think Brent is looking for higher tension than those.
 
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