The Bartolini BH2: Why Does It Sound So Dark? My EHB1265MS Experiments

[HAYATA]

Hello everyone,


My name is HAYATA, and I just registered on TalkBass for the first time.


I recently modified my Ibanez EHB1265MS, a headless 5-string multiscale bass equipped with Bartolini BH2 pickups.


During the modification, I was able to identify what I believe are the main advantages and disadvantages of the BH2, and I thought I would share my findings with everyone here.


Here is what I found about the BH2.

Advantages​

• It has a lot of output and very low noise, resulting in an excellent S/N ratio.
• It has a huge amount of low end and can produce an almost subwoofer-like sound.
• Because the bass is multiscale, the distance between the pickups varies slightly from string to string. This spreads out the frequencies affected by phase cancellation, rather than concentrating the cancellation into a single narrow notch.
• When coil-tapped and used as a single-coil, it can still provide a reasonably well-balanced output.

Disadvantages​

• The coils use a very large number of turns of very thin wire in order to achieve high output. The resulting very high inductance causes a significant loss of high frequencies.
• Because two coils are placed relatively close together within a narrow aperture, additional high-frequency cancellation occurs.
• Even when the pickup is modified for parallel wiring, the two coils still interact with each other spatially, so the notch around 3 kHz cannot be avoided.
• Even when coil-tapped, the high inductance still causes loss of higher harmonics. The result is poor resolution and an overall sound that resembles a speaker with a blanket over it.
• The built-in Vari-mid preamp is basically just an EQ, so it does not actually improve the fundamental quality of the pickup's sound. The pickup itself is still passive, not active.
• Because the EHB1265MS is a multiscale bass, standard 5-string replacement pickups do not fit. A 6-string-sized pickup is required, which makes replacement more expensive.

That's basically it.


In short:


The BH2 seems to have sacrificed high-frequency information in exchange for power.


For reference, on the EHB1265MS, the distance between the two pickups is approximately 80–85 mm, depending on the string. This means that phase cancellation occurs roughly across the 300–1100 Hz range.


The distance between the two coils within each BH2 is approximately 18 mm, which puts another set of cancellation points roughly in the 1.4–4.8 kHz range.


And on top of all that, there is the high-frequency roll-off caused by the high inductance.


So... yeah. We're pretty much screwed.

---

I also experimented with the BH2 to see if I could somehow make it sound better. I modified the wiring so that I could switch between series, parallel, front-coil tap, and rear-coil tap.


The results were quite interesting:

• In both series and parallel modes, the response starts dropping rapidly above around 2 kHz, with a pronounced notch around 3 kHz.
• In series mode, there is a peak around 4 kHz, while in parallel mode the peak moves to around 5 kHz.
• Switching from series to parallel does not make nearly as much difference as I expected.
• When coil-tapped and used as a single-coil, the response above 2 kHz suddenly comes back, resulting in a much more modern sound.
• With both pickups using their inner coils, the response naturally scoops the 600 Hz–1 kHz range, making it surprisingly easy to use, somewhat like a Jazz Bass.
• With both pickups using their rear-facing coils, the bass has a very clear low end and high end, resulting in what I found to be the most balanced and modern-bass-like sound of all the configurations I tested.

That's all I found.

Conclusion​

The EHB1265MS itself is a very well-designed bass in terms of its body, neck, hardware, ergonomics, etc.


However, in my opinion, the BH2 is the weak link.


If you buy an EHB1265MS, I would seriously recommend replacing the BH2 pickups with suitable replacement pickups as soon as possible.


The rest of the bass deserves better pickups.

 

[funkinbottom]

I recently modified my Ibanez EHB1265MS, a headless 5-string multiscale bass equipped with Bartolini BH2 pickups.

First off, welcome to talkbass.
I have a 5 string short scale version. Multi scale 32" scale B and a 30" scale G An EHBSMS1005. Same pickups. What did you replace your pickups with? I feel the preamp is a bit lacking as well. It sounds decent, but could sound much better.

 

[HAYATA]

First off, welcome to talkbass.
I have a 5 string short scale version. Multi scale 32" scale B and a 30" scale G An EHBSMS1005. Same pickups. What did you replace your pickups with? I feel the preamp is a bit lacking as well. It sounds decent, but could sound much better.

Dear funkinbottom,
Thank you for your reply.
I had never heard of an EHB short-scale model before.
To get straight to the point: I haven't actually swapped the pickups yet.
I decided to hold off until I had fully explored the potential of the BH2s.
(plus, replacing them would be a waste of money)

That said, the two types of pickups I’m considering are listed below.
Both should be installable without any woodworking.

・EMG E6W set
Relatively inexpensive, with slow battery consumption.
However, since they were released only about a year ago, there isn't much information available.
I’ve never seen a bass that comes with them stock,
so I’m hesitant to commit to buying them without gathering some sound samples first.

・Fishman Fluence set (PRF-BS6-SB2)
These offer peace of mind because they are officially installed on models like the EHB5MSBSP and 1675MS.
However, they are expensive—about double the price of the E6W.
I would also need to figure out where to mount the
mode-switching switch.

I think I’ll likely go with the E6W and also
swap the preamp for a BQC System.

 

[joelb79]

I'd go with EMG in a heartbeat. I can offer these sound samples of the E5W's...









They sound like big splits or big singles from Nordstrand if you loaded the nord's at 1Meg Ohm. Keep in mind the pickup design is like a fat/wide single coil. So its tone is somewhat between Single and Dual Coils. Wider aperture than a J, but no other coil to cancel with.

 

[joelb79]

I think I’ll likely go with the E6W and also
swap the preamp for a BQC System.

Can I talk you out of the BQC. Its just nothing special, like the preamp that ibanez includes. You can also hook up the Ibanez stock preamp using EMG Quick connections, so no soldering as well. it saves you a coin or two. I would argue you cannot tell the dif between the BQC and Ibanez aside from eq points. Speaking of, the eq points change depending on how you plug in the output jack on the ibanez preamp. Its probably plugged into the BEQ3 plug, there is also a VM3 plug which offers a clearer sound that accompanies the sweep mid more.

You can use the LHZ active blend to achieve the only trick the BQC offers for around $40. That is an active blend without the drop out in center position.

if you want a three way switchable mid or sweep mid from 80-4khz I can show you the parts to change that out on your Ibanez preamp.

 

[HAYATA]

Hello everyone,


My name is HAYATA, and I just registered on TalkBass for the first time.


I recently modified my Ibanez EHB1265MS


During the modification, I was able to identify what I believe are the main advantages and disadvantages of the BH2, and I thought I would share my findings with everyone here.


Here is what I found about the BH2.

Advantages​

• It has a lot of output and very low noise, resulting in an excellent S/N ratio.
• It has a huge amount of low end and can produce an almost subwoofer-like sound.
• Because the bass is multiscale, the distance between the pickups varies slightly from string to string. This spreads out the frequencies affected by phase cancellation, rather than concentrating the cancellation into a single narrow notch.
• When coil-tapped and used as a single-coil, it can still provide a reasonably well-balanced output.

Disadvantages​

• The coils use a very large number of turns of very thin wire in order to achieve high output. The resulting very high inductance causes a significant loss of high frequencies.
• Because two coils are placed relatively close together within a narrow aperture, additional high-frequency cancellation occurs.
• Even when the pickup is modified for parallel wiring, the two coils still interact with each other spatially, so the notch around 3 kHz cannot be avoided.
• Even when coil-tapped, the high inductance still causes loss of higher harmonics. The result is poor resolution and an overall sound that resembles a speaker with a blanket over it.
• The built-in Vari-mid preamp is basically just an EQ, so it does not actually improve the fundamental quality of the pickup's sound. The pickup itself is still passive, not active.
• Because the EHB1265MS is a multiscale bass, standard 5-string replacement pickups do not fit. A 6-string-sized pickup is required, which makes replacement more expensive.

That's basically it.


In short:


The BH2 seems to have sacrificed high-frequency information in exchange for power.


For reference, on the EHB1265MS, the distance between the two pickups is approximately 80–85 mm, depending on the string. This means that phase cancellation occurs roughly across the 300–1100 Hz range.


The distance between the two coils within each BH2 is approximately 18 mm1.4–4.8 kHz range.


And on top of all that, there is the high-frequency roll-off caused by the high inductance.


So... yeah. We're pretty much screwed.

---

I also experimented with the BH2 to see if I could somehow make it sound better. I modified the wiring so that I could switch between series, parallel, front-coil tap, and rear-coil tap.


The results were quite interesting:

• In both series and parallel modes, the response starts dropping rapidly above around 2 kHz3 kHz.
• 4 kHz, while in parallel mode the peak moves to around 5 kHz.
• Switching from series to parallel does not
• When coil-tapped and used as a single-coil, the response above 2 kHz suddenly comes back, resulting in a much more modern sound.
• With both pickups using their inner coils, the response naturally scoops the 600 Hz–1 kHz range, making it surprisingly easy to use, somewhat like a Jazz Bass.
• With both pickups using their rear-facing coils, the bass has a very clear low end and high end, resulting in what I found to be the most balanced and modern-bass-like sound of all the configurations I tested.

That's all I found.

Conclusion​

The EHB1265MS itself is a very well-designed bass in terms of its body, neck, hardware, ergonomics, etc.


However, in my opinion, the BH2 is the weak link.


If you buy an EHB1265MS, I would seriously recommend replacing the BH2 pickups with suitable replacement pickups as soon as possible.


The rest of the bass deserves better pickups.

My apologies for the delay.
I have uploaded a video detailing the modification process, so I am sharing it here.

I haven't finished adding all the subtitles yet, so there may be some issues with the translation; I ask for your understanding.
I compare the sound of the different wiring configurations using a slap bass phrase from "Forget Me Nots," so please take a look.

 

[HAYATA]

Can I talk you out of the BQC. Its just nothing special, like the preamp that ibanez includes. You can also hook up the Ibanez stock preamp using EMG Quick connections, so no soldering as well. it saves you a coin or two. I would argue you cannot tell the dif between the BQC and Ibanez aside from eq points. Speaking of, the eq points change depending on how you plug in the output jack on the ibanez preamp. Its probably plugged into the BEQ3 plug, there is also a VM3 plug which offers a clearer sound that accompanies the sweep mid more.

You can use the LHZ active blend to achieve the only trick the BQC offers for around $40. That is an active blend without the drop out in center position.

if you want a three way switchable mid or sweep mid from 80-4khz I can show you the parts to change that out on your Ibanez preamp.

Hi joelb79,
Thanks for the reply.
And thanks for sharing those videos;
I’ve watched them countless times.
It’s actually great that the sound lacks a specific, defining characteristic—it’s neither "J-style" nor "P-style."
If I had to describe it, I’d say it has a "soapbar" kind of sound.

Thanks for the info on the preamp, too.
Regarding the preamp in the EHB1265MS: the earlier models came with the "3EMP3LD," which allows you to change the tonal character by swapping out internal sockets.
However, my EHB is a later model (serial number 1P-02, printed on the headstock), so it came with the "3EMP3BBYA," which doesn't support that socket-swapping feature.

You’re right—the tonal character barely changes when switching between active and passive modes.
So, if the stock preamp doesn't negatively affect the sound after I swap in the E6W pickups, there’s really no need to go out and buy a BQC preamp as well.
You make a great point.

 

[Riff Ranger]

I replaced the Bartolini BH2s in my Ibanez SRC6MS with EMG E4Ws and consider this a huge improvement for my purposes. If someone wants nothing but deep, smooth low end, they might prefer the sound of the BH2s; but unlike @HAYATA ’s experience, I found the BH2s incredibly noisy. The E4Ws produce virtually no extraneous noise, and deliver definition with plenty of low end and overall output.

Many Ibanez BTB models come with BH2s stock, which initially put me off BTBs when I decided to acquire a full-size six-string, even though I liked everything else about the designs. I decided to try the BTB25TH6 since it came with Nordstrand Big Singles stock, and I’m glad I did. Even though they are true passive single coil pickups, they have similar output to the EMGs with almost negligible hum, and all the definition anyone could want.

Both these instruments have the typical Ibanez three-band preamp, which no one on here seems all that excited about. I generally just apply a slight boost to upper mids, if anything, so I have no complaints about the preamp myself.

 

[groovaholic]

It's unfortunate that your bass doesn't have the older preamp circuit with multiple inputs.
Moving the input from VM3 to BEQ3 really brightens things up - yet retains the solid low end that comes naturally with the BH2.

I have my EHB1265MS listed for sale because none of the material I'm playing calls for a 5-string.
But every time I play the bass, my motivation to sell it diminishes...

 

[crazycloud]

Can I talk you out of the BQC. Its just nothing special, like the preamp that ibanez includes.

What exactly do you expect from a preamp? Some specific baked in tone? The BQC and the Ibby pres are flat when the controls are centred so they have no tonal character unless you make them.

 

[BeeBatty]

I have a 1st gen EHB1005MS 2020 with the BH2 pick ups as well. I find the entire bass to be boxy-sounding with too much around 400~600 Hz. The boxiness seems to be the pick ups (?). I looked at the p/us and the preamp and I have been completely frightened off from working on that bass. Really, I just want to change out the p/us but the nightmare that awaits inside that bass makes me just want to sell it, instead. That preamp appears to have not been changed or modified but it also looks to be a royal PItA that shouldn't be worth most people's time.

It's unfortunate that your bass doesn't have the older preamp circuit with multiple inputs.

There must be some sweet spot where they put those adjustable pres in those basses but my first year 2020 does not have it. The inside is a wire nest bound with a few zip ties. It also looks stock. I don't think I could or would want to get the preamp back into the body after sorting it out and replacing the Barts.

I like the weight but it also has not impressed me enough to spend almost the same money to replace the preamp and p/us. I would only replace the pre because my gut tells me that it would be easier to work on something other than the existing pre. That blows past the cost of the bass in the first place. It is fun to play and great to carry/travel but only when I can dial out the boxy.

Thank you @HAYATA for this thread. I appreciate your time and experiments. I hope to continue to learn more.

 

[groovaholic]

I have a 1st gen EHB1005MS 2020 with the BH2 pick ups as well. I find the entire bass to be boxy-sounding with too much around 400~600 Hz. The boxiness seems to be the pick ups (?). I looked at the p/us and the preamp and I have been completely frightened off from working on that bass. Really, I just want to change out the p/us but the nightmare that awaits inside that bass makes me just want to sell it, instead. That preamp appears to have not been changed or modified but it also looks to be a royal PItA that shouldn't be worth most people's time.

There must be some sweet spot where they put those adjustable pres in those basses but my first year 2020 does not have it. The inside is a wire nest bound with a few zip ties. It also looks stock. I don't think I could or would want to get the preamp back into the body after sorting it out and replacing the Barts.

I like the weight but it also has not impressed me enough to spend almost the same money to replace the preamp and p/us. I would only replace the pre because my gut tells me that it would be easier to work on something other than the existing pre. That blows past the cost of the bass in the first place. It is fun to play and great to carry/travel but only when I can dial out the boxy.

Thank you @HAYATA for this thread. I appreciate your time and experiments. I hope to continue to learn more.

It's not so much an adjustable preamp as a preamp with different voices, depending which output you use:

The +6dB input is also helpful if you need more output

 

[BeeBatty]

It's not so much an adjustable preamp as a preamp with different voices, depending which output you use:
View attachment 7565006
The +6dB input is also helpful if you need more output

That is wonderful, and I have seen those previous discussions here on TB, but alas, and nope. Those headers do not exist in my 2020.

Thank you, nevertheless! I appreciate you reaching out.

 

[HAYATA]

I replaced the Bartolini BH2s in my Ibanez SRC6MS with EMG E4Ws and consider this a huge improvement for my purposes. If someone wants nothing but deep, smooth low end, they might prefer the sound of the BH2s; but unlike @HAYATA ’s experience, I found the BH2s incredibly noisy. The E4Ws produce virtually no extraneous noise, and deliver definition with plenty of low end and overall output.

Many Ibanez BTB models come with BH2s stock, which initially put me off BTBs when I decided to acquire a full-size six-string, even though I liked everything else about the designs. I decided to try the BTB25TH6 since it came with Nordstrand Big Singles stock, and I’m glad I did. Even though they are true passive single coil pickups, they have similar output to the EMGs with almost negligible hum, and all the definition anyone could want.

Both these instruments have the typical Ibanez three-band preamp, which no one on here seems all that excited about. I generally just apply a slight boost to upper mids, if anything, so I have no complaints about the preamp myself.

Dear Riff Ranger,
Thanks for the reply.
The E-series looks great.
Hearing your opinion has made me even more eager to buy the E6W. Thank you.

Your assessment regarding the BTB is spot-on, too.
I haven't heard a single bad thing about Nordstrand pickups so far.
Maybe I should buy some stock in the company (lol).

Regarding the Ibanez onboard preamp, I think it’s less a case of having a bad reputation and more a case of simply not having any negative feedback.
Much like the MXR Micro Amp, I believe that an effect—or component—that doesn't get in the way is ultimately a great one.

If I do end up swapping out the E6W or the BQC, I plan to feed a sine wave into the preamp and observe the changes on an analyzer, just like in the video you mentioned.
Thanks for the idea.

 

[HAYATA]

It's unfortunate that your bass doesn't have the older preamp circuit with multiple inputs.
Moving the input from VM3 to BEQ3 really brightens things up - yet retains the solid low end that comes naturally with the BH2.

I have my EHB1265MS listed for sale because none of the material I'm playing calls for a 5-string.
But every time I play the bass, my motivation to sell it diminishes...

Dear groovaholic,
Thank you for your reply.
So, what you're saying is that even with the BH2, a certain level of improvement is possible using post-EQ, right?
I don't know if it was for business reasons, but the fact that such a useful preamp was quietly downgraded is a classic case of that "de facto price hike" trend so common in Japan.
That is so typical of Japanese companies! (Haha)

I apologize if I’m being presumptuous or if I’ve offended you, but you really shouldn't sell that instrument.
Musical instruments are toys for grown-ups.
When you play with a toy, do you stop to think, "This toy has an effect like..."?
As long as looking at that bass doesn't make you feel bad, it still holds value for you.

 

[groovaholic]

you really shouldn't sell that instrument

No offense at all - I’ve had the same thought.

But I’m far too frugal to have basses sitting around unplayed…

 

[HAYATA]

I have a 1st gen EHB1005MS 2020 with the BH2 pick ups as well. I find the entire bass to be boxy-sounding with too much around 400~600 Hz. The boxiness seems to be the pick ups (?). I looked at the p/us and the preamp and I have been completely frightened off from working on that bass. Really, I just want to change out the p/us but the nightmare that awaits inside that bass makes me just want to sell it, instead. That preamp appears to have not been changed or modified but it also looks to be a royal PItA that shouldn't be worth most people's time.

There must be some sweet spot where they put those adjustable pres in those basses but my first year 2020 does not have it. The inside is a wire nest bound with a few zip ties. It also looks stock. I don't think I could or would want to get the preamp back into the body after sorting it out and replacing the Barts.

I like the weight but it also has not impressed me enough to spend almost the same money to replace the preamp and p/us. I would only replace the pre because my gut tells me that it would be easier to work on something other than the existing pre. That blows past the cost of the bass in the first place. It is fun to play and great to carry/travel but only when I can dial out the boxy.

Thank you @HAYATA for this thread. I appreciate your time and experiments. I hope to continue to learn more.

Dear BeeBatty,
Thank you for your reply.
I also felt dizzy the moment I opened the back plate of the BH2.

However, considering the EHB's body size, I suppose it is unavoidable.
On the flip side, the fact that the body contours are kept to a minimum means the instrument is less prone to unwanted body resonance.
The peaky sensation around 500Hz that you mentioned is actually relative—it stems from a lack of high-end frequencies.
It seems the BH2 is causing issues of that nature.

If you take the stance that a 3-band EQ isn't necessary on the bass itself, I would suggest switching to a "2-volume, 1-tone" setup.
That would certainly clean up the interior of the control cavity.

Also, although I haven't tried it yet, I am considering a wiring scheme that bypasses variable resistors entirely—connecting the pickups directly to the output jack, perhaps via a rotary switch.

 

[HAYATA]

No offense at all - I’ve had the same thought.

But I’m far too frugal to have basses sitting around unplayed…

Why don't you sell it the moment you think about selling it?
In *JoJo's Bizarre Adventure*, Prosciutto says, "If, in your heart, you decide you want to sell that bass, the sale is already done."
You should do the same.

I recommend selling it while its resale value is still high and using the proceeds to buy your next bass. (Hahaha!)

 

[groovaholic]

Why don't you sell it the moment you think about selling it?
In *JoJo's Bizarre Adventure*, Prosciutto says, "If, in your heart, you decide you want to sell that bass, the sale is already done."
You should do the same.

I recommend selling it while its resale value is still high and using the proceeds to buy your next bass. (Hahaha!)

There was a Dingwall nearby for a great price, but it has sold - so my motivation to sell is lukewarm.

 

[BeeBatty]

Dear BeeBatty,
Thank you for your reply.
I also felt dizzy the moment I opened the back plate of the BH2.

However, considering the EHB's body size, I suppose it is unavoidable.
On the flip side, the fact that the body contours are kept to a minimum means the instrument is less prone to unwanted body resonance.
The peaky sensation around 500Hz that you mentioned is actually relative—it stems from a lack of high-end frequencies.
It seems the BH2 is causing issues of that nature.

If you take the stance that a 3-band EQ isn't necessary on the bass itself, I would suggest switching to a "2-volume, 1-tone" setup.
That would certainly clean up the interior of the control cavity.

Also, although I haven't tried it yet, I am considering a wiring scheme that bypasses variable resistors entirely—connecting the pickups directly to the output jack, perhaps via a rotary switch.

Thank you for the advice, @HAYATA . I don't think I have an issue with the preamp. Other than being unwieldy physically, I wan't really uptight about the preamp sound. I got a very bummed when I saw the amount of work it would take to simply replace the pu/s, though.

I love how you are plowing on ahead. Rotary switches wired straight to the source. Thanks for following up and we will love to see what you do in the future.