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Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

#261
Interesting. For me I think the only way I could do guts and own one bass is if I played straight ahead, four in the floor, jazz with an ear towards that distinct old sound. I think the first time I had an epiphany about steels was listening to Gary Peack on trio 64 play little Lulu. His sound on that track (and LP) is in my top 5 all time bass sounds. Check this **** out...

I think it's just incredible and what the steels allow him to do is very impressive. Listen to the depth of that sound! Obviously steel, but ballsy! Trying those licks on gut just doesn't work, the chords are too messy, the bottom too thick without enough transparency. I guess that's something I miss with guts, transparency. Guts fill in all those frequencies which is both cool yet crowded....

I enjoyed your post and insight Mark but I feel like the steels actually have LESS mids, kind of a scooped sound... I feel like it's those mids that make gut barrel on through the mix...
 
#262
Jason Sypher said:
Interesting. For me I think the only way I could do guts and own one bass is if I played straight ahead, four in the floor, jazz with an ear towards that distinct old sound. I think the first time I had an epiphany about steels was listening to Gary Peack on trio 64 play little Lulu. His sound on that track (and LP) is in my top 5 all time bass sounds. Check this **** out...

I think it's just incredible and what the steels allow him to do is very impressive. Listen to the depth of that sound! Obviously steel, but ballsy! Trying those licks on gut just doesn't work, the chords are too messy, the bottom too thick without enough transparency. I guess that's something I miss with guts, transparency. Guts fill in all those frequencies which is both cool yet crowded....

I enjoyed your post and insight Mark but I feel like the steels actually have LESS mids, kind of a scooped sound... I feel like it's those mids that make gut barrel on through the mix...
Click to expand...


I'm glad you liked the Peacock. He was still playing guts in 1964 so you were commenting on how great his sound was on gut. He didn't switch over to steel until around 1970. Pick up something he was on in 1970 or 71 and you'll hear a HUGE difference in his sound and approach. You can get a nice singing sound on guts by lowering the string height which is what Peacock does here. Keep it low and you get a more Scott LaFaro-ish sound. Raise it up and you get a more classic jazz kind of sound.

And I can play those kinds of licks on gut easier than I can on steel. It's all about the touch. Once you get used to it, gut is really easy to play fast and clean on. There are some other tricks to making the sound clean and focused. For example, plucking with the extreme end of fingertips of the right hand will help get a strong focused attack (something you'd probably not want to do with steel) and one that's good to use when soloing. Plucking down through the string is another way to bring out the attack.

I'll have to make some recordings and put them up to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

mark
 
#263
Jason: for what you do, I can't imagine why you'd want to use guts anyway. Arco on gut can be done but it seems to be a a bit of a sonic compromise and one taken by folks who spend way more time playing pizz. When I try to play arco, it sounds like I'm stepping on a cat's tail (and that's on steel or gut strings). I don't play arco in public at all. For anyone who spends a lot of time playing arco, steel just seems superior to me.

And seriously, dude, you should put out a solo bass album. That stuff you post on Youtube is totally killin'.

mark
 
#264
You realize you just blew my world to bits right? Gary was playing guts on that record?
I need a drink. I need another. Guts? This whole time, basically my whole bass life I've been amazed at how great those steels sounded. That is some ****ed up **** right there.

I actually like bowed gut but not as much as I used to I guess. I just posted five of my favorite bass sounds and I'm almost positive that, with Gary on board, they are all gut!
I don't know...right now, it's just steel for me. Jeez. Can I get another drink?

Thanks for the kind words. I've been thinking about that for some time. All those youtube things are pretty old, I've been way more into improvising over things which is what I would want out of a solo effort. I'm working on it. Thanks for the encouragement.

Gary Peacock on guts. Hell just froze over.
 
#265
Don't beat yourself up. I switched to guts because I coveted Scott LaFaro's sound from the Vanguard recordings and you just can't get anything even close to it with anything other than guts with a low string height.

You compromise some volume but you gain that singing kind of tone. In the early-mid 60's, Peacock, Steve Swallow, Eddie Gomez were all heavily influenced by LaFaro's sound and approach.

mark
 
#266
Mark, can you, or anyone, come up with a list of bassists who stayed with gut after steels became "the norm"? Obviously Mingus and Haden, and I think Wilbure Ware did, but who else? Eddie Gomez until when? Would be interesting...
 
#267
olivieraleman said:
Mark, can you, or anyone, come up with a list of bassists who stayed with gut after steels became "the norm"? Obviously Mingus and Haden, and I think Wilbure Ware did, but who else? Eddie Gomez until when? Would be interesting...
Click to expand...

I wasn't around then and there are guys on the boards who were and were playing through that period so I might not be the best source for this. Based on their recordings most guys switched over between 1968 and 1971 or 2. Gary Peacock, Eddie Gomez both switched around 1970. Mingus was playing on steel with an amp by 1972. I don't now if Charlie Haden ever went to all steel but he uses Spiro Mittels for his E/A now and the Tynex-covered Golden Spirals for D/G. Apparently he bought a bunch of sets before they were discontinued (as an aside, I tried Golden Spirals for a while back around 1999. I still have an unopened set on my shelf. It was too soon for me though. I wasn't ready for gut then).

I know Paul Warburton posted something on this question once. If my feeble memory serves, he said, most guys switched over to steel E and A in the mid-60's first and then gradually went all steel over the next few years.

mark
 
#269
Gary sounds great, whatever strings he's on.
-I am in love with the Pistoy D. It's only been on since Monday but it's a beautiful thing. Those of you who have the experience know what it is.
-The medium Lyon G came to me from Bobby and I've had it on and off a few times so I'm wondering about its condition. Pinched between my fingers and running the length of the string shows some variation in diameter/thickness. It isn't perfectly smooth like the Pistoy. Is that normal for a Lyon or is it nearing the end???????????????????

What's the life cycle of these things?
 
#272
Just to add to the arco discussion... In addition to enjoying Jason's video's, this has been a good example for me of nice arco work on gut strings...



John Feeney and the American Classical Orchestra. Nasally? Yeah, sometimes. Scratchy? No way! I also feel like I came across some early Gary Karr recordings that sounds like he's playing on guts. I'll have to go back and see if I can find them.

I've only got a gut G now cause that's all I can afford. The interesting challenge has been to try and get as close of a match in tone when I'm crossing from the G to the Spirocore D or playing double stops. It's coming along, better than I thought it could.
 
#275
Jason Sypher said:
So what am I gonna do to put this to rest in my mind? But a G and D Pistoy and give up if I don't like them....? I can always turn them over and give a TBer $50 off of what I paid. I think it's funny that ALL my favorite bass sound recordings are gut...jeez
Click to expand...


I hate giving advice, but you should just trust yourself about what works for you, forget about what strings others use or have used, even your idols. Your posts are living proof of how a sound can be achieved with different strings, and how our impressions can be mistaken. Gut can be fluid and sustaining, steel can be punchy and thumpy. Many factors go into the end result. We all live in our own unique time and place, what worked for someone in a different time and place wont necessarily work for you, or even give you remotely the same result.

I've had this experience many times, hearing a great sound I assumed was gut, only to find out the player was using Spirocores. And like many others, it's astounding to hear someone like Scott LaFaro get so much singing sustain from gut strings. And many times I've changed strings trying to emulate someone else, only to be frustrated and dissapointed.

I currently have a bass that I think works very well with guts, but my last bass was much better with Spiros. I enjoy them both and I'm seriously trying to stop fussing so much with strings. It feels like a sickness sometimes :rollno:
 
#276
Jason Sypher said:
Gary definitely sounds steel on the E and A, agreed?
Click to expand...

I don't know if he had switched by then. Actually, I don't know if Peacock ever swapped his E and A. He gave up bass in the late '60's to study Zen in Japan (or something like that) so there aren't any recordings of him from the time steel E/A was getting popular with other bassists. They sound like wrapped gut to me though. It's hard to tell.
 
#277
Well I'm not really a "hero" kind of guy but I know what you mean. I've never wanted to sound like anyone in particular but I like to reassess my own sound every few years as I did when I switched to steels. The gut thing is always a draw to me, the sound, the feel, the vibe. A lot has to do with getting a new bass and messing with different sound options. The great news is I can try things without a huge loss if I want to try something else. Perhaps I'm sounding whiny but I'm not feeling that way...more curious...
 
#280
Invalid Link Removed are some tracks from a recent session I did in my home studio. The studio is in the basement so it is dubbed 'The Laundry Room'. I'm still tweaking but I thought I'd share the bass sound I got. Personally I'm giddy. We recorded all in one room, mostly sans cans. I used a CAD large diaphragm condenser on the bass about 1' from the bridge. I did use a bit of creative baffling as not to get overpowering amounts of drums in everyone's mics (which we did anyway at times). I did take a signal from my ATM35pro too for the spots where the drums got too loud in the CAD but used very sparingly. Enjoy. Input is welcome too.
 

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