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Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

Thanks. The point is that I think it's nice to bow on guts and the sound can work, particularly with the finer gut strings. I can't imagine trying to tackle classical with guts...but for other music they can be very expressive. I've got spiro med on right now and found them pretty rough going for a recording session where they wanted all arco. I thought "hey, these might actually be harder to bow than guts". The pizz with the Spiros is really strong but a little "clanky" on my bass. The gut might warm things up.
 
I'm pretty new to double bass, I played about 8 years through high school and college, but I could never afford my own bass. I'll probably get an Ergo EUB, just so I have something to work on technique and play the occasional jazz gig. Has anyone put guts on an EUB with pleasing results. It seems like the characteristics of gut would balance the inherent brightness of piezo pickups.

Seems almost like sacrilege. Plus guts are very expensive if all you are hoping to do balance out the pickup. I'd suggest you try some dark steels or hybrids like Evahs, Bel Cantos, Helicore Orchestras...

What fingers said, plus you might do well with solo/light gauge strings rather than regular gauge on the EUB.

FWIW, I tried gut on my own EUB (AZOLA) and it truly sounded like doo-doo.
 
Well, I tried some guts and they sounded great on my bass BUT, I decided against going down that well-trod road again. Granted, I didn't follow my own advice to many others to leave the strings on a few days and get used to the change but I kind of just knew right away. The guts sound great so, what's the problem? Well, I've developed over the past few years on steel and I really can't do the same things on gut as I can will steel. It goes both ways, there are things gut do better, but all in all, give the choice, I choose steel. The power, the ability to dig in, the crispness of the attack, the stability. I just couldn't think to go to a gig with the guts after people know my sound with steels. I just played on the radio yesterday with just a mic and the bass sound came out full and driving. Although they sometimes sound a little metallic alone, in the mix they sound warm.
 
Word Jason...I'm a spiro hag....

No kidding. I get asked to recommend strings a lot and I represent Innovation here in Canada but the 'One True String', the 'Desert Island String', the 'I play jazz and bluegrass and I slap a little but I need to be able to bow as well' string, the 'One string to bring them all and in the darkness bind them' string is Thomastik Spirocore Weich.

I really appreciate Innovation Strings and the way they feel and I dig the sound of Velvets and the sexy feel of Pirastro Flex 92s and the 'poom' of gut but - I've never heard a bass that sounds poopy wearing a set of Spiros.
 
No kidding. I get asked to recommend strings a lot and I represent Innovation here in Canada but the 'One True String', the 'Desert Island String', the 'I play jazz and bluegrass and I slap a little but I need to be able to bow as well' string, the 'One string to bring them all and in the darkness bind them' string is Thomastik Spirocore Weich.

I really appreciate Innovation Strings and the way they feel and I dig the sound of Velvets and the sexy feel of Pirastro Flex 92s and the 'poom' of gut but - I've never heard a bass that sounds poopy wearing a set of Spiros.

Amen brother preach it. I also like all the harmonic stuff I can do on Spiros, how much they sustain and yes, if I want to, I can play many fast passages easily. Guess I'll stick to spiros (with an Olive G) :D:D:D
 
I just had that feeling that I'd be playing them because I can hear those great bass tones from all my records in my head...even though that's not really the sound that's coming out of MY bass, you know? Like a personal, romantic, inside my head, aural daydream that, once off the G string, had very little to do with reality. I need my bass TO WORK, day in and day out in all kinds of music, places, vibes. Ive got some sub gigs coming up with a band called Lunasa and I really couldn't imagine trying to convince them that these guts are really a better bass sound...and that's what I'd be doing, likely, over and over, explaining to people I play with why these super wide, indistinct, floppy, slow, nasally, strings sound so good. I get it, the sound and the vibe, but a lot of people don't.
 
To a certain extent I think string do have a thing to do with "your thing" but that can change as we've seen in the great players who switched over (either direction). Imagine Charlie Haden with Spiros? He'd be Charlie but all that sustain might really trip him up a bit, at least, in regards to the sound we know and love. He would still sound like Charlie but some of his stuff would be different and he might change the way he does things. I think that starting on gut and switching to steel is a great way to go because I think you carry some of that gut sound with you (because of the way you play and the type of things you play). This is a blanket statement but I think there is truth in it. I've been trying to strip away a little of the "emotional, even romantic" notions of what I play and how I play to get to a more empirical truth about what I play and what I need to do to improve and develop. Sounds heady, even a little silly in words, but I want to get straight to the music, how I perceive what I'm playing, how others perceive what I'm playing and how to streamline that communication. Again, a little self-absorbed, I know...apologies for perhaps too much information. Steels, at least right now, give me the biggest toolbag with which to achieve my goals.
 
Strings, and really all tool choices have more impact on how you do what you do than how others perceive it. I play a little differently with Gut strings on top than I do with steels but not enough for most people to have much of an opinion one way or another. My more particular sonically sensitive friends have unanimously preferred me on Spiros than gut. Especially with my old bass. They like how it is well defined and still big and warm. Guts just wash it out and sound tubby. Looses it's power and projection. It's not murky on the Ply bass though where gut warms up the D/G. Still not as well defined as spiros but it has that gut pop on the note that I like. Nobody else seems to care.

I have been using that Oliv G on the old bass just because for me I can't stand that spiro G most of the time even if it sounds more articulate out front. Thats a "for me choice" not for anyone else. It still has some of that gutish pop to remind me of what to do with guts on the songs that need to sound like that.

Play gut if it helps you define yourself. I thought it might for me but in splitting time on both my basses I'm not sure it does for me.
 
..... super wide, indistinct, floppy, slow, nasally, strings...... Again, a little self-absorbed, I know...apologies for perhaps too much information.

I must say that I've never had gut strings that sounded remotely "nasally", and I generally find the sound of gut to be very distinct. Of course, these things are subjective. But you should just use whatever works best for you. You don't have to convince yourself or anyone else that you like gut strings.
 
Nasally under the bow for sure although not too bad.

I realized last night that when playing on steels, hybrids, Olive G or whatever mix thereof, I was trying to play in the style of Charlie, PC and ideally myself but it was just slightly off. Something just didn't quite fit like it does with guts.

Although nobody has said, "your bass sounds incredible because you went to guts" I am now getting compliments on how good 'I' sound and how well the group sounds. That is why I am dedicated to learning and growing in the 'gut' experience.

TEHO, YMMV, etc......yada, yada, yada.
 
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My bandmates are only interested in my gear choices if they can use it for marketing...."old tyme stand up bass with gut strings!"....like anybody actually would go to see something just because of that.
 
I've been trying to strip away a little of the "emotional, even romantic" notions of what I play and how I play to get to a more empirical truth about what I play and what I need to do to improve and develop. Sounds heady, even a little silly in words, but I want to get straight to the music, how I perceive what I'm playing, how others perceive what I'm playing and how to streamline that communication. Again, a little self-absorbed, I know...apologies for perhaps too much information. Steels, at least right now, give me the biggest toolbag with which to achieve my goals.

A great goal IMHO. I have been pondering the same navel. The word for me... 'clarity'. All aspects of what we do in music, or life for that matter, has to do with the clarity with which we convey ideas. In the context of the bass and music in general I think of clarity of tone, of time, of pitch, of ideas. We often place blame on the audience or even our fellow musicians if they can't follow our ideas but I have come to the conclusion that it is not because they don't 'get' us but rather that we are not presenting them clearly enough.

For me my recent gut experiment has forced me to distill my ideas a bit because of the physical limitations. I have to conceptualize my ideas differently and am forced not the wiggle as much which forces clarity. For me.
 
I've had an unusual opportunity lately. About 5 years ago, my beloved '32 Juzek was almost destroyed on a gig when someone got their foot caught in the cable while on break. To keep from falling, the guy jerked his foot forward which launched the bass up into the air where it came down on the bridge (as a sidenote, I always disconnect my bass from the cable on break now). Massive damage. Mike Shank finished repairing/restoring it a few weeks ago and, the man is a magician, I got my bass back. It was MY bass. Not something that just looked like it. It sounded and played like it did 5 years ago and it still had the same Spiros Mittels that were on it when I took it to him. It took him a long time but it was worth it. I played the hell out out of it when I got it back and it opened up beautifully.

When the '32 was damaged, I found a '28 Juzek that sounded and played remarkably similarly to the '32 and I bought it. It's been my main bass since then. It now sports guts with Anima A/E.

I had a rehearsal at my house the other day and I was able to play each bass alternately so I could get a real comparison between two very similar sounding, great basses; one strung with Spiros and the other with guts. It was a highly unique opportunity.

The overall consensus was the one strung with guts sounded better. This could be partially because, over the past 3 years, I've become really proficient at making the gut string sound my own. But when A-B'd, the Spiros sounded thinner and weaker in comparison. Of course, they were more direct sounding and when playing a melody, particularly when the D string was used a lot, they sang more forcefully. You can also "muscle" the steel better. If you need to interject something musically, you can force your way into the mix in a way that is more difficult with the softer attack of the guts.

I think Spiros are better for some applications such as many kinds of pop/folk/rock. The stronger mids and the narrower focus of the sound mixes better when there is a dense group of instruments. I kind of like steel better with latin and funk as well for similar reasons. But when it comes to any kind of swing-based jazz, the guts deliver in a way the Spiros just don't. They sit better in the mix and, after quite a bit of practice and experience, I can now play faster and more accurately on the guts than I ever could with Spiros so my soloing has improved immeasurably as I can pull off technical things with ease that would have been extremely difficult with higher tension strings. Not only that but my options for playing the bass without an amp have increased immeasurably. I usually play with an amp but mostly so I can solo easier. If I wasn't soloing, I could probably play without an amp 80% of my gigs. A little over a year ago, I was late for a gig and got there just as we were supposed to start playing. I didn't have time to set up my amp so I just pulled the bass out of the bag and started playing figuring I'd set up the amp on break. It was a loud gig with drums bashing away and NO ONE noticed I wasn't amplified except during my solos; during one someone from the audience yelled out for me to "turn up". I didn't bother setting up the amp at all that night. You just can't do that with any kind of steel string. When looking for the elusive "my bass but louder" sound, guts really deliver.

Because the mid-range of the guts is so much less of the overall sound than with steel, it is also much easier to amplify. With steel, it was a constant fight to get the amp to sound right in any new room. That problem has effectively gone away. So much more of the sound is fundamental with guts that my amp sounds pretty much the same from room to room. It's really nice to be able to put the amp ANYWHERE, plug in and get the sound you're looking for immediately and without hassle.

Getting used to guts after steel is a challenge and one that everyone who tries it has to overcome. You really do have to relearn how to play on them. The touch is very different and if you try to play them like steel strings with the same touch, you'll be cutting them off your bass before the first set break. When I first put them on, trying to play fast was like trying to run through snow. Now I can play Cherokee at 300 bpm all night and solo afterward. Also, I had a lot of tricks and go-to licks with steel strings that just didn't work with gut and it took a while to develop a set of tricks and go-to licks that worked with gut (interestingly many of those sound lousy on steel strings). Anyone who wants to use gut strings has to go through that transition which can be tough if you're a pro and playing lots of gigs.

I'm going to leave the Spiros on the '32 (although I'm going to put an Olive G on; the Spiro G is just too painful to use now) and use it for those gigs and recording sessions that are more pop/folk/latin/funk oriented. Over the past couple of years, I did miss the steel on those sessions. The main bass is staying gut. It has really become my sound now and, as long as the majority of my gigs are swing-based jazz gigs, I can't forsee ever giving that up.

mark
 
@ Jason -- I agree that it's difficult to produce a good arco tone with guts. If you do a lot of arco professionally, gut is not the way to go. But I have found that over time I've been able to improve my gut arco sound.

@ Phil -- I think for many people it's simply the look of an upright, period, let alone even knowing anything about "old timey with gut strings" You could play a Fender in some circumstances and it would sound more like old-timey gut bass than many uprights with steels. It's the idea of the upright they want :) Admittedly, upright has a attention getting look, so if I get some work for that reason alone, so be it.

Along the same lines, sometimes I get progressive folkie types that request fretless bass. But they don't want any Jaco/Pino sustainy stuff, again it's more the idea of it that appeals -- as though not having frets makes it more"acoustic" somehow. :)

I like both gut and steel. It depends on the bass, and the player. I've been fooled thinking someone was playing on gut when it was Spirocore. Some basses just don't respond well with gut. I have to say though that for me, when it's right, gut is what I enjoy playing pizz upright on most of all, and what I feel that I sound and play my best with.
 

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