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Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

#81
Bobby King said:
Again, the thud factor can depend quite a bit on the bass. I've noticed that steel strings will choke in the same places, it is just less apparent. Some of the ring and overtones you get from steel masks the thud to a certain degree. It shows up much more with gut. The usual problem spots are on the D string from around A to C, when you have a bass that sings in that range, keep it! :) I've never owned any particularly great basses, but I've heard the great gut players of yore -- Oscar Pettiford, Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro, Charlie Haden -- and they could get plenty of sing and sustain with gut, so a good instrument makes a big difference.

I will say that playing on gut tends to make you play more Simandl and less Rabbath. In other words, you move to the G string for the higher notes and you tend to play less across the fingerboard. More shifting is required to get clarity.
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I know what you mean. I haven't used high-tension steels on this bass but I have gone as far as spiro weichs. Even with weichs there are some funny spots on the D string. Ab is a troublemaker on my bass. It's a bit wolf-y and I think being close to the open G contributes a bit.

But the bass is loud, bright, and quick to respond so I'll deal with it. I'm thinking it probably won't be too much worse with guts. Especially not compared to the worn-out Anima D with intonation issues that's on there now. And I already tend to play more up the G string than across...

Thanks Bobby and Olivier for your advice. I'm thinking I may be better off going with more of a medium-heavy G and medium-ish D. I think my bass will sustain reasonably as long as my left hand is solid so I might as well go for a bit more punch and resistance for the right hand.

In part I think I just have to take the plunge. Seems crazy when I know Animas are a perfectly reasonable option, but if I never try it I'll just keep on wondering.
 
#82
fingers said:
...I know there are some players that do the high tension steels with guts like Charlie Haden. I think Ben Street was doing that for a while too. I just caught Ben Allison when I was last in NYC and he uses Spiros on the bottom with Velvets on top. I was hoping I'd be one of the guys that could get that to work.
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quite a few have tried to mix gut with steel strings, though i didn't know Charlie was one. at least here on TB, i don't know of any who didn't take the guts off after a short time, many in frustration over the difference between their standby steel E & A strings and the guts. maybe they should've taken off the steels and let the guts have a go on their bass.

my opinion is you won't find out how your bass sounds with guts unless you go all gut. and leave them on at least long enough to settle in and for you to get used to the differences in playability, etc. the first time i tried guts i took them off after a few days because i couldn't figure out how to play them. the bass never really opened up for the guts, and i didn't open up to them either.

i later tried guts with a Spiro Weich E and a regular Evah E -- the steels didn't stay on for even one hour. the high (or higher) tension of those E strings (i also had the steel A's on) was too much for the guts. the tension imbalance choked the bass. the guts couldn't resound like they should. there are also differences and issues of playability, feel, technique, expression and tone. guts are louder unamped than my other bass with Spiros on it, and they project through the mix wonderfully. i still can't bow them worth a hoot, but i'm not giving up there either... cheers Bill

Aaron Cohn said:
...Can anyone speak to the practical consequences of lighter or heavier guts? I've used a number of gut-core or vaguely gut-ish strings, but this is going to be my first adventure with the real thing on my own bass. Thanks very much.
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Aaron, the differences between "medium" and "light" are measured in tenths of a millimeter, so it is a subtle thing. after trying a lighter G and medium D i currently have Gamut Pistoy medium G and a light D. like others, i like the better focus of the lighter D and am in love with the fullness of the medium G. i also found i like a bit more tension on the Gamut copper wound E and A, so i went with the "heavies" there when replacing them. but i would say these differences are really minimal, and you can't go wrong getting mediums for your first set. adjust from there next time.
 
#83
William Hoffman said:
i later tried guts with a Spiro Weich E and a regular Evah E -- the steels didn't stay on for even one hour. the high (or higher) tension of those E strings (i also had the steel A's on) was too much for the guts. the tension imbalance choked the bass. the guts couldn't resound like they should.
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My experience with spiro weich E and A and plain gut D and G was different. The guts seemed to loosen up the feel of the whole bass, the spiros felt looser than they do with a full spiro set. The guts boomed and the bass felt and sounded great. If the guts are lower in tension than the spiros, my bass responded really well to that, or whatever the mix of strings made happen.
 
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#84
After 14 years of Spirocores, Helicore Hybrids, Labella Blacktapes, Velvet Animas and Obligatos, I pulled the trigger on all guts. I tried the Labella guts with the wound E and A and it was OK. Wasn't real crazy about the two different feels. It was only when I went with a full set of unwound guts that I found the authentic sound for jump blues I was looking for. They're just Lenzners. Not sure if a higher-end gut would be better or worse for what I do.

They are a pain to keep in tune, true. But that thump is unbeatable. The E and A lack sustain, but they thump. And the sound is the sound of those old blues recordings.

I had to sell my 49 Kay Swingmaster before I went all guts. I wish I would've been smart enough to try them on that bass. Now I've got a newer Shen, and it sounds really fine with the guts.

Lately, I've found that when I'm sitting on a stool at home playing really quiet and soft -- sometimes with my thumb instead of my right index and middle fingers -- the bass produces some really different sounds. Seems like the easier I play the guts, the tones get more complex. When I'm ripping through an amp with the band, it's the thump.

All guts are working for me....now. That could change if I ever learn more than what the I-IV-V songs I play require.
 
#85
Let me add that next Thursday, Kim Wilson (Fabulous Thunderbirds) is doing a show here....with THE rhythm section: Richard Innes on drums and The Mole - Larry Taylor - on bass!!!

I contacted Larry via Facebook and offered him the use of my upright for the show. He gladly accepted. So I'll get to hear what my bass with guts sounds like, played by (in my opinion) one of the finest blues and jump blues player ever!
 
#86
thejumpcat said:
Let me add that next Thursday, Kim Wilson (Fabulous Thunderbirds) is doing a show here....with THE rhythm section: Richard Innes on drums and The Mole - Larry Taylor - on bass!!!

I contacted Larry via Facebook and offered him the use of my upright for the show. He gladly accepted. So I'll get to hear what my bass with guts sounds like, played by (in my opinion) one of the finest blues and jump blues player ever!
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NICE!! I to use Lenzner all plain guts and love the tone I get with my Strunal 5/20. Wish I could go to that show
 
#89
Mojo, Ill try to help. Ive played Gamut Lyon heavy+ G, Lenzner G, Chorda Carlos G and while the Gamut was "better" in some ways, its all very subjective. The Lenzner G at Quinn is 52.00 and change and I paid roughly 80.00 and change for a new Gamut. If you've never played guts the Lenzner will let you know what you're in for and you can upgrade later. I just bought a near new set of Clef from a TB member for 150.00 but havent tried them. They look well made, however.

Remember, there is only so much energy that any gut string can convey to the instrument, and all differences, in my opinion, are slight. But they are there. This applies to the "problem child" gut D, only more so. The Gamut Pistoy D that I ordered a month ago, and havent gotten yet, was about 150.00 and the Lenzner at Quinn bout 70.00 John
 
#94
I'll let you know what I think. The strings are supposed to ship next week. I like the idea of his smooth-polished E and A, though they aren't cheap. All the Animas work well on my bass, especially the E and A (best E string for my needs I've tried), so I'm going to see how the combination works.

For now I have another week or two of a funky Anima D and pinch-hitting spiro weich G...
 
#95
Eric Hochberg said:
My experience with spiro weich E and A and plain gut D and G was different. The guts seemed to loosen up the feel of the whole bass, the spiros felt looser than they do with a full spiro set. The guts boomed and the bass felt and sounded great. If the guts are lower in tension than the spiros, my bass responded really well to that, or whatever the mix of strings made happen.
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Eric, in terms of tension-balance, your bass is different from mine. maybe some extra tension on the E/A side helped with the guts on yours when you tried them. my gut bass likes lower tension, i guess.

you've got my curiousity started. if you liked the Weich/gut mix, why did you take the guts off? there must've been some reason. also: did you ever try a full set of guts on that bass?

apart from tension, i also didn't like the sound of the Evah E and A next to the guts, tone- and volume-wise. it terms of feel, the EPs are just a whole lot different. they don't play the same way.
 
#96
String tension, balance, volume, power are all very complicated relationships on a carved top double bass. The vibrating plates are huge and change with the seasons. Each player's behaviors are widely different. Top that with expectations being different for each player.

Tension changes across strings make differences in the tone and feel of all strings. Change one string just a bit and it modifies everything a bit from the driver's seat. May not notice a huge difference in front without larger changes.

For instance, if I use a Weich A string with my Mittel E and Oliv D/G the Oliv D sounds better, clearer and the G digs deeper in the wood....but the A looses power in the change. Drop the E to a weich as well and there is better volume balance across the strings but the E/A loose some of their power. Maybe in context that doesn't matter but I'd have to live with that change for awhile before I could get used to it.

Those are very subtle changes that are noticeable probably only to me however they significantly impact my playing.
 
#97
William Hoffman said:
you've got my curiousity started. if you liked the Weich/gut mix, why did you take the guts off? there must've been some reason. also: did you ever try a full set of guts on that bass?
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I took the D off first because of the thunkiness, especially in thumb position. I replaced it with an Evah weich. That made a nice transition to the gut G. Played with that combo for a couple of weeks and liked it, but had an important gig and didn't want to take a chance with the gut G. Also, I decided that maybe one of the boutique G strings would be better, which I've still not ordered. This combo was weird for arco, although at times I did alright with it. From everything I've heard about wound guts in our climate here, it doesn't seem worth the hassle, at least in the winter ( tuning issues, windings failing, etc.)
 
#99
fingers said:
So I think I'm gonna try wrapped gut E and A when the weather eases up a bit. I'm also going to try Velvets. A question to the gut faithful... Garbos or Aminas?
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Garbos are thicker and richer pizz but are really hard to get a good sound with the bow. Larger gages than Animas. Garbo light are like weich Garbos...really light strings. Animas are a touch brighter perhaps more complex and about like Spirocore under the bow. Of the 3 I preferred Animas. I documented 6 or so months with them one summer several years ago.

I couldn't use them as I tend to sweat quite a bit on summer gigs outdoors and I stuck to them like flypaper. Killed the groove and just about busted a finger.

I played a full set of Gamut medium guts on 3 gigs and couldn't take it. I didn't have time for the learning curve then. I might now, but I'm not sure about the low tension. Freaks me out. Great sound for sure. The wound gut he makes is way different than any of the vintage gut or cheaper stuff. If I went there again I'd just go right to his stuff.

Of all those strings I wouldn't be surprised if you liked Animas. Nice spot between spirocore and gut in a way that Evahs are not. If you don't sweat like a pig and don't mind the black fingers you get playing them then they sound really good and amplify as easy as Spirocores.
 
#100
fingers said:
So I think I'm gonna try wrapped gut E and A when the weather eases up a bit. I'm also going to try Velvets. A question to the gut faithful... Garbos or Aminas?
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I use Garbos for the E and A, with Lenzner D and G. On my bass, and for my way of playing, it's a happy combination. I have no plans to change, although I would'nt mind trying one of these Gamut Ds.
 

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