Hopefully we won't argue that the way the wood is removed affects the tone.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Hand-crafted vs CNC-manufactured instruments?
- Thread starter Hambone 70
- Start date
-
- Tags
- vs
Check Music man factory tour on YouTube where it shows roughing done on CNC with final touches by hand.
It will be better, because the hand-made thing (instrument or other widget) will accommodate for any variable it encounters. A machine can't.
I played one of the boutique makers basses that was very famously sold with a PLEK setup; the rep was hawking the brand in a music store to a friend of mine who was the guitar dept manager. He handed the bass to me and asked what I thought of it. It didn't play as well as many Fender, Ibanez, etc setups for other basses hanging on the wall - and we know how bad those are. It wasn't bad, just wasn't stellar.
Best setups I've ever had were done by hand by guys with a lot of experience who knew what they were doing. And I've never seen them even measure anything. Best nut replacement I ever had was by a guy who told me he just "eyeballed" it.
You can measure all you want, but the human hand is an incredibly reliable tool for what's good and what ain't.
Router tool marks are an ESSENTIAL part of "my sound."
CNC is not inherently more precise than old-school jigs and fixtures and so on. Workholding, tool flex, tool wear, machine flex, runout, workpiece flex--all are present and some are actually worse. Plus backlash becomes a greater issue with reversals in the middle of a cut.
Hand fitting is always more precise because you can make two (or more) parts perfect for each other. Mass production always comes with specified tolerances so that things fit even when one was made on a newly refurbished mill and the other took the slack out of old spindle bearings.
But for a bass, really, how precise do you want it to be? It's not a racing valve train or a sharpshooter's bolt face.
CNC is more precise than hand fitting.....
All your reasoning is that of someone that knows little of CNC.
BTW backlash on anything, even wood tools can be eliminated by digital scales that read movement not an encoder wheel.
Except for the CNC that I own and use in my manufacturing business.
I am not a professional machinist, and I have no doubt that professional machinists can achieve results far better than I can. But 1) closed-loop control is still expensive and non-trivial to set up because error handling for anything but XYZ cuts is not at all obvious (which makes it really unlikely a luthier would bother), and 2) the very closest fits in moving metal parts, at least, are still achieved by lapping and swiss files. I'm not sure on what basis you believe that tool flex or machine flex don't occur in CNC machines, but you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that those gantry-style CNC routers don't bend and shake a lot with improper speeds and feeds because...I've watched it happen.
CNC is a way of moving the tool relative to the workpiece. It saves making a bunch of jigs and fixtures. But it doesn't magically eliminate the many sources of error.
- May 1, 2014
- 2,494
- 2,341
- 56
- Disclosures
- Owner Melodious Resonance Constructs
There's another aspect to CNC worth mentioning, which is being able to prototype some fairly complex designs. Take this build by @synesthesia as an example. This build could certainly be done by hand, but the results of the build were stellar.
Pratt and Whitney a few miles down the street, can't remember seeing any hand built parts on aircraft in many a year, hand fitted maybe.
As far as watching machines shake with improper speeds and feeds, you need to watch better machinists. I try not to make a habit of watching those who aren't skilled......... with their tools.
Proper feeds and speeds, exceeds everybody's abilities, just not some egos apparently.
I've yet to see the same tolerances used, much less requested for wood working use CNC equipment, it's one of my pet peeves that woodworkers don't demand the tolerances, but if it works for them fine.
Your example on close fitting tolerances has some validity with hand lapping and filing, but, metal has more consistency and stability than wood, so that would likely exclude woodwork for that alone in using those methods and obtaining those tolerances, or do I have that wrong?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "handmade." If you mean someone takes a bandsaw and rough cuts a bass body based on a pencil outline and then finish shapes with a spindle sander, I would agree that CNC is going to be vastly more precise. But if you mean someone skilled at his job screws an aluminum pattern down and runs a top-bearing router bit around it, well, that's going to be awfully similar, if not better, than a big floppy gantry guiding a bit around. Because those gantries can be awfully floppy (compared to a J-head mill, say), and some of them used toothed belts to move the cutter(!). Given the difference in capital and operating costs of the two options, if I were making a bunch of very similar basses, I'd have the aluminum pattern cut by a machine shop and make any tweaks or customizations by hand rather than using a CNC, and I'd expect it to deliver comparable tolerances.
I don't know anything about aircraft manufacturing, but I suppose that defense contractors and companies that charge $350 million for a single unit can probably afford better tools and better operators than guys who charge $10,000 for a bass.
I don't know anything about aircraft manufacturing, but I suppose that defense contractors and companies that charge $350 million for a single unit can probably afford better tools and better operators than guys who charge $10,000 for a bass.
I think this is the video where Sterling Ball relates that the trick to building great basses is figuring out what steps machines do better and what steps people do better. Lots of hand finishing to make a Sting Ray.
The luthier I use (Konig Bassworx) is definitely low volume however he has a decent kit of machines. He'd love to make a living building basses but it's just not possible here in Australia. His basses are absolute works of art but, being an engineer and knowing what helps, he still uses numerous CNC tools to aid in his builds. When he worked on my Warmoth/Blacktop Jazz fretless he used the CNC just to do the small rout for truss rod access.
He is currently working on my Warmoth fretted Jazz neck on my Franken P and out of interest sent me a photo of one of his machines set up to cut the custom 15 string bridge for a build he is currently working on. If it's anywhere near as good as the 12 string of his I played it will be a monster bass.
Just my two cents on the results of a PLEK work: I bought this Fender MM MIJ from Swee Lee in Singapore.
The Bass was made between 2007 and 2010 at the (presumably) Dyna Gakki factory sporting a T + 6 digit serial number and a MIJ indication on the headstock (being a MM model it may also have been fabricated at the premises of the third manufacturer Fender Japan involved for the production of this and if the Geddy Lee signature models albeit I don't know the factory's name).
The bass was generally ok although characterised by s high level of hum noise generated by the bridge pickup when soloed or almost soloed.
I could not however attain a stable and fully satisfactory setting for its neck since it required constant adjustments to accommodate the neck displacements under load and the need of an overall low action.
After a year of use (I enjoyed it a lot anyway) I brought it to a guitar garage owned by the same shop chain which sold me the bass as they have recently acquired a PLEK station and I was eager to see the effect of a PLEK intervention on an instrument which I knew well aiming to improve it.
Unfortunately the guy at the garage was not even similar to a luthier... he was a good technician but that's all he was.
However, the PLEK had the effect of completely eliminating the problem and making the neck an absolute pleasure to play making it a serious contendent to necks made by high-end firms that's why I was talking in favour of the comparison between some of the so-called boutique instruments and some good or made good mass-produced instruments in a thread recently started by DoctorCheese.
The cherry on top of the pie would be a luthier who sets up the PLEK machine and let it work taking care thereafter if the job's fine tuning ... you can imagine the really astounding results.
A good portion of the amounts we pay fir purchasing high-end instruments is the work of the luthier between the neck and the body ... there are on the market several pickups and preamps that exceed the performances of what Sadowsky install on their basses but Sadowsky basses sound good and are very playable ... why? Because they are made and tested by professionals (as in the case, however, of the Fender CS).
The PLEK is surely a quantum leap innovation in this field, able to produce very good results when used by a technician and astounding results when used by a luthier ... who knows what secrets Fodera or Sadowsky hide in their basements eh eh eh ...
The Bass was made between 2007 and 2010 at the (presumably) Dyna Gakki factory sporting a T + 6 digit serial number and a MIJ indication on the headstock (being a MM model it may also have been fabricated at the premises of the third manufacturer Fender Japan involved for the production of this and if the Geddy Lee signature models albeit I don't know the factory's name).
The bass was generally ok although characterised by s high level of hum noise generated by the bridge pickup when soloed or almost soloed.
I could not however attain a stable and fully satisfactory setting for its neck since it required constant adjustments to accommodate the neck displacements under load and the need of an overall low action.
After a year of use (I enjoyed it a lot anyway) I brought it to a guitar garage owned by the same shop chain which sold me the bass as they have recently acquired a PLEK station and I was eager to see the effect of a PLEK intervention on an instrument which I knew well aiming to improve it.
Unfortunately the guy at the garage was not even similar to a luthier... he was a good technician but that's all he was.
However, the PLEK had the effect of completely eliminating the problem and making the neck an absolute pleasure to play making it a serious contendent to necks made by high-end firms that's why I was talking in favour of the comparison between some of the so-called boutique instruments and some good or made good mass-produced instruments in a thread recently started by DoctorCheese.
The cherry on top of the pie would be a luthier who sets up the PLEK machine and let it work taking care thereafter if the job's fine tuning ... you can imagine the really astounding results.
A good portion of the amounts we pay fir purchasing high-end instruments is the work of the luthier between the neck and the body ... there are on the market several pickups and preamps that exceed the performances of what Sadowsky install on their basses but Sadowsky basses sound good and are very playable ... why? Because they are made and tested by professionals (as in the case, however, of the Fender CS).
The PLEK is surely a quantum leap innovation in this field, able to produce very good results when used by a technician and astounding results when used by a luthier ... who knows what secrets Fodera or Sadowsky hide in their basements eh eh eh ...
Pratt and Whitney uses quite a few parts on their engines that are handcrafted actually, especially in the sheetmetal, flexhose, and foil commodities. Back to the topic though....there are CNC machines out there that would blow your mind and with some advanced programmers, they could easily destroy a manual process out of the water in terms of tolerance, contour, fit, and finish. Add in additive manufacturing and every bridge, nut, etc is done without ever cutting chips so to speak. There is no real monetary advantage to investing the money in all the supply chain management needed to achieve this level of finish to put on the market for a few hundred or thousand dollars. Easier to do most of the time consuming cnc processes that dont break the bank as far as equipment and tools and pay hourly people to do the fine tuning. If basses had better value and the demand was there, those hourly processes would become machining processes too
Last edited:
One woodworker here who demands a tight tolerance. I'm a stickler for joinery, therefore I demand a tight neck pocket. I get bashed on here routinely for demanding that manufacturers provide a tight neck pocket, the response: "It doesn't matter to the sound." But the CRAFTSMANSHIP matters to me. Just imagine buying a piece of furniture with sloppy dovetails. Today they're CNC'd, but way back in the day, they were killer - and drawn and sawed by hand.
I used to have a pic on here, and may be still somewhere on TB, of the worst neck pocket ever on a Fender Mexi P-bass body. They are like that routinely. ugh.
And another thing - I've seen an awful lot of tear-out on CNC-made bodies supplied by even the likes of Warmoth. I sure wish they're change their bits once in awhile.
Spot on.
A friend of mine has a small business making one-off parts for the technology sector. He has several CNC machines and a few manual mills and lathes. He explained there's a tradeoff between finish and machining speed, and past the 'sweet spot' between the two, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns when considering time and touch labor. I suppose the better boutique luthiers, and certainly the bigger manufacturers, have spent a considerable amount of time and expense optimizing the tooling and CNC programming.
In my opinion, affordable CNC machinery has transformed the business of luthiery when it comes to consistency, repeatability, fit, and perhaps finish. There are gorgeous instruments coming out of small shops, both hand carved and fitted, or CNC. Either method still has a fair amount of hand labor, so I wouldn't necessarily favor CNC over hand-crafted. But when considering a luthier for a custom build, I feel there's a better chance your instrument will have the same attributes as the one before it when manufactured using CNC methods. Of course, this assumes the luthier has a demonstrated history of success using the technology.
I can't see any downside to CNC for all the basic operations, not much art or glamour in routing neck or pup pockets, initial neck shaping, etc. The art is in that last 1/16" of hand work, the finishes, inlays, etc. I suppose eventually most of that will be CNC built too, but as long as it's still wood, each instrument will be somewhat unique by default.
CNC is a tool. Factories use it to cut time and cost at the expense of individuality. I use it to get rid of repetitive work and to push the envelope on creativity.
1. Repetitive work, like p-ups and electronics cavities, neck pocket.... To me that's a no brainer: I cannot see why a hand routed truss rod channel would produce a bass that is better than a CNC made.
I always make neck profile by hand as there are too many variations for CNC to work efficiently. My bodies are cut by hand too because even within the same model I make variations based on what that specific bass needs to deliver. Ditto for any contour which I do entirely by hand. That is, with different tools
Heck I even do my body chambering by hand!
It's just a matter of how CNC can fit one's working style.
(BTW, everything that is CNC made needs final hand work. Sometimes quite a bit of it. The impression that, a part is good to go right out of the machine is a bit misguided).
2. Working with CNC to me is not a matter of speed or precision: I can achieve a sufficient level of precision being as fast - perhaps faster than CNC if one accounts for machine set up. But repetitive work is boring and takes a lot of time which I can dedicate to more creative work.
CNC (as much as laser) has freed up my creativity from the limits of hand tools. I can now come up with ideas which my mind would have automatically filtered out not too long ago. How many times a great idea had to be discarded just because the client could not afford to pay for the time necessary to do it by hand?
One only has to look at car design before and after new materials and technologies were introduced to get a sense of how far creativity can go with new tools.
Obviously all this is the byproduct of my placing creativity above working style/technique. Others will feel otherwise and that's OK.
(As a final note, routing eventually will take a toll on my hands. Fingers, wrist, palm discomfort started showing up after a while and I need my hands to play bass).
M
1. Repetitive work, like p-ups and electronics cavities, neck pocket.... To me that's a no brainer: I cannot see why a hand routed truss rod channel would produce a bass that is better than a CNC made.
I always make neck profile by hand as there are too many variations for CNC to work efficiently. My bodies are cut by hand too because even within the same model I make variations based on what that specific bass needs to deliver. Ditto for any contour which I do entirely by hand. That is, with different tools
Heck I even do my body chambering by hand!It's just a matter of how CNC can fit one's working style.
(BTW, everything that is CNC made needs final hand work. Sometimes quite a bit of it. The impression that, a part is good to go right out of the machine is a bit misguided).
2. Working with CNC to me is not a matter of speed or precision: I can achieve a sufficient level of precision being as fast - perhaps faster than CNC if one accounts for machine set up. But repetitive work is boring and takes a lot of time which I can dedicate to more creative work.
CNC (as much as laser) has freed up my creativity from the limits of hand tools. I can now come up with ideas which my mind would have automatically filtered out not too long ago. How many times a great idea had to be discarded just because the client could not afford to pay for the time necessary to do it by hand?
One only has to look at car design before and after new materials and technologies were introduced to get a sense of how far creativity can go with new tools.
Obviously all this is the byproduct of my placing creativity above working style/technique. Others will feel otherwise and that's OK.
(As a final note, routing eventually will take a toll on my hands. Fingers, wrist, palm discomfort started showing up after a while and I need my hands to play bass).
M
