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Double Bass hand position in second octave

Hi.

I am trying to get more fluent in the second octave, ie from harmonic G upwards.

I am interested in the hand position that people use.

I find that I can't have my thumb, first finger and 3rd finger down on the string at once without collapsing my first finger. I don't want to do that because it feels uncomfortable and I think I read somewhere else not to do it. So I end up lifting up fingers and moving my hand around a bit depending on what finger is down on the string. This doesn't seem ideal as I can't do it fast.

Comments and links to pictures welcome.

John
 
The collapsing first fingering is something that I had/still have its something thats difficult to over come but you just need to keep working at it and try to keep it arched. I think that there might be a different kind of finger strength that you need to learn in thumb position and it takes time just like anything else on bass. try doing the second octave of all the major scales in thumb position and then maybe the minors.
 
The first thing to do is have an experienced player check the bass to make sure the action isn't too high in the thumb positions. Then keep the fingers slightly arched. You may have to play [:t - 1:] back and forth to build up the finger. Also, try not to lock down all the fingers - too much strain. You can sort of "rock & roll" from finger to finger - a very similiar motion used in the open hand or 4 finger technique. It's difficult to give exact advice without seeing whats happening.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
 
The first thing to do is have an experienced player check the bass to make sure the action isn't too high in the thumb positions. Then keep the fingers slightly arched. You may have to play [:t - 1:] back and forth to build up the finger. Also, try not to lock down all the fingers - too much strain. You can sort of "rock & roll" from finger to finger - a very similiar motion used in the open hand or 4 finger technique. It's difficult to give exact advice without seeing whats happening.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

Some say the action should serve ease of playing, others say you set it where it sounds good for the bass and deal with it.

Also, others I have studied with say to hold your position, I have also heard this rock and roll thing Tom is talking about but it is definintely in the minority.
My personal feeling is that holding the position may be more effective at first.
 
Also, try bringing the forearm around a little more to the front to facilitate more arm weight through the finger to the string. This may involve having to adjust the height of the instrument. I was always taught to not think of the finger as independent, but as the final point of focus of power coming all the way up from the lower back. My $.02 anyway.
 
If it's not high tension that is the problem (and it very well could be), then I think you just have to build up the strength of your fingers. Vomit exercizes are ideal for this (I believe), but everything else which has been stated is also true.

Simply working on anything slowly will eventually build up your strength - provided that you practice correctly. If you have a teacher, ask him/her about any specific exercises they recommend.

Scales help, but you may also try picking up some easier beginner music, and playing it up an octave, in thumb position.
 
I have also heard this rock and roll thing Tom is talking about but it is definintely in the minority. QUOTE]

The rock & roll thing is just adjusting the action of the left hand to take off the strain of locking down all fingers - something left over from the 1910's to the 1950's when all 4 was better than 1&2 and 2 was better than one and one was not as good as open. All this was based on high action, beating up your left hand and huge gut strings. Unfortunately, we're still suffering from the 1920's - 1950's "excerpt books" and method books based on those techniques. This is now post-Simandl, guys and gals. The old fingerings and techniques can still work but these are so many more things now available to enhance your playing and, during your next audition, you may run into players using them!
Tom Gale
 
I have also heard this rock and roll thing Tom is talking about but it is definintely in the minority. QUOTE]

The rock & roll thing is just adjusting the action of the left hand to take off the strain of locking down all fingers - something left over from the 1910's to the 1950's when all 4 was better than 1&2 and 2 was better than one and one was not as good as open. All this was based on high action, beating up your left hand and huge gut strings. Unfortunately, we're still suffering from the 1920's - 1950's "excerpt books" and method books based on those techniques. This is now post-Simandl, guys and gals. The old fingerings and techniques can still work but these are so many more things now available to enhance your playing and, during your next audition, you may run into players using them!
Tom Gale

Yeah, I am sure it works for you, after the amount of years you have been playing, most any system would. For me holding the position is very comfortable, and worth any strain to get the pitches easier.
 
Mark Morton - my partner in crime - had an interesting statement after he returned fron the ISB convention at OK. in June. He heard some great recitals and commented that, all the players he saw, used what we call the Triangulation of Fingering Systems. Its the blending together the 1,2,4 (closed hand), 1,2,3,4 (open hand) and the thumb positions both above and below the octave. None of the three are new. They have been used for 100+ years but the skillful combining of the three enables you to meet varied musical challenges successfully - more so than limiting yourself to just one skill. That's my $50.00 opinion.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
 
The nice thing about thumb position is that it's exactly the same for us as it is for cellists, so we can use the same exact technique that they do and get the same results. There's a very good video of Jeff Bradetich online that showcases his impeccable thumb position technique and the divisions of whole steps and half steps here: Invalid Link Removed Everything he says is spot on and as you can see from his playing it works.

In thumb position, you'll always want your thumb pressed down a half step or a whole step away from your first finger (very rarely a minor third which I've used playing the Koussevitzky concerto to avoid a shift during a slur). The thumb will give your hand stability and aid in vibrato. For all shifts in thumb position you'll want to move your thumb along with the shifting finger the same way you shift in lower positions with first finger to accurately measure the shift and make sure you hand is as secure as possible. After that, there are the different combinations of whole steps and half steps between each finger. The most common thumb position configurations that I use are a chromatic "closed position" of all half steps, then a whole step between T and 1 with half steps between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 and then a whole step between T and 1 with a whole step between 1 and 2 and a half step between 2 and 3. Sometimes it's needed to have a whole step between all fingers in a fast passage where you want to avoid shifting by moving the thumb. As the positions get larger, you'll notice that it's not very easy to keep all fingers down where the notes are and that's perfectly fine. As you play up or down the thumb should stay in the same place as a reference point and the other fingers down, but they can move towards the note that you're trying to get to a little and when coming away from that note go back into place. It's a very accurate, efficient way to use your left hand. And of course if you need to bring out a note one can move the fingers into a more condensed position to help with vibrato. I don't recommend the way Karr does it by bunching fingers on top of one another, but if, for example, you're coving a perfect fourth from G to C at the second octave with T to 3, you could always move the hand into a smaller position instead of keeping a larger one while still avoiding a shift.

One very good book on thumb position is Franco Petracchi's Simplified Higher Technique book published by Yorke. It's a little pricey and some of the drills are overkill to start on, but it's worth looking at.

Collapsing of the first finger normally happens if you don't play enough on the tip of the finger as the first finger needs to be at more of an angle to preventing collapsing than the second and third which are more pad and less tip. This is because of the angle at which the hand comes at the fingerboard combined with the necessary spacing of the fingers. One thing that might be holding you back is having long nails. I make sure that there are no whites at the end of my fingernails so that I can as easily as possible in thumb position. It's difficult at first, but if you keep at it you'll have curved fingers in no time and have an easier time shifting and playing faster. If your third finger is collapsing don't give it too much attention. The angle at which it comes at makes it preferable to play more on the pad to get an even vibrato with the other fingers.


This is now post-Simandl, guys and gals. The old fingerings and techniques can still work but these are so many more things now available to enhance your playing and, during your next audition, you may run into players using them!
Tom Gale

Gee wiz, I'm scared now...better buy your books ASAP so I don't fall behind...
 
The nice thing about thumb position is that it's exactly the same for us as it is for cellists, so we can use the same exact technique that they do and get the same results. There's a very good video of Jeff Bradetich online that showcases his impeccable thumb position technique and the divisions of whole steps and half steps here: Invalid Link Removed Everything he says is spot on and as you can see from his playing it works.

In thumb position, you'll always want your thumb pressed down a half step or a whole step away from your first finger (very rarely a minor third which I've used playing the Koussevitzky concerto to avoid a shift during a slur). The thumb will give your hand stability and aid in vibrato. For all shifts in thumb position you'll want to move your thumb along with the shifting finger the same way you shift in lower positions with first finger to accurately measure the shift and make sure you hand is as secure as possible. After that, there are the different combinations of whole steps and half steps between each finger. The most common thumb position configurations that I use are a chromatic "closed position" of all half steps, then a whole step between T and 1 with half steps between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 and then a whole step between T and 1 with a whole step between 1 and 2 and a half step between 2 and 3. Sometimes it's needed to have a whole step between all fingers in a fast passage where you want to avoid shifting by moving the thumb. As the positions get larger, you'll notice that it's not very easy to keep all fingers down where the notes are and that's perfectly fine. As you play up or down the thumb should stay in the same place as a reference point and the other fingers down, but they can move towards the note that you're trying to get to a little and when coming away from that note go back into place. It's a very accurate, efficient way to use your left hand. And of course if you need to bring out a note one can move the fingers into a more condensed position to help with vibrato. I don't recommend the way Karr does it by bunching fingers on top of one another, but if, for example, you're coving a perfect fourth from G to C at the second octave with T to 3, you could always move the hand into a smaller position instead of keeping a larger one while still avoiding a shift.

One very good book on thumb position is Franco Petracchi's Simplified Higher Technique book published by Yorke. It's a little pricey and some of the drills are overkill to start on, but it's worth looking at.

Collapsing of the first finger normally happens if you don't play enough on the tip of the finger as the first finger needs to be at more of an angle to preventing collapsing than the second and third which are more pad and less tip. This is because of the angle at which the hand comes at the fingerboard combined with the necessary spacing of the fingers. One thing that might be holding you back is having long nails. I make sure that there are no whites at the end of my fingernails so that I can as easily as possible in thumb position. It's difficult at first, but if you keep at it you'll have curved fingers in no time and have an easier time shifting and playing faster. If your third finger is collapsing don't give it too much attention. The angle at which it comes at makes it preferable to play more on the pad to get an even vibrato with the other fingers.




Gee wiz, I'm scared now...better buy your books ASAP so I don't fall behind...

Great post! +1, that video is awesome. Tom, that might be a good route for you, an online video demonstrating your techinque.
 
Gee wiz, I'm scared now...better buy your books ASAP so I don't fall behind...

Thats it..
Fort Pitt...
I quit...
Please unsubscribe me......
Tom Gale
 
Nah Tom just ignore the insults. You've got Mark Morton, Silvio Dalla Torre, and possibly even Jeff Bradetich in your corner.

I understand that many of Jeff's students utilize the open hand approach where it's clearly advantageous. :bassist:
 
Nobody is insulting him. I am sure he is great player and educator and his method works great. However, he pushes his methods at every other thread.
IMO, It is best and most resposible to reccomend standard, proven and common methods to beginners so that they are likely to find teachers who are fluent in those methods and so they can later measure the more modern ideas against what came before.

Also, I was serious about the video, I got a lot from that Bradetich video, I drilled those triads in TP for a while today.
An online video demonstrating the concepts is going to be more effective than pushing your methods over all the standard ones.
 
Methinks it's primarily the presence of jargon (like "Triangulation of Fingering Systems") which makes Tom's contributions to these conversations come off like evangelism or one-true-way-ism. I agree with the premises of using 3 finger, 4 finger, Rabbath, Robinson, Petracci, and everything else that's out there if it has musical results, but if I ever start calling it "The 34RRP Methodology" I think I'll look pretty silly, IMHO.