Harmonic analysis Linda Chicana - help, please!

[Whousedtoplay]

Sorry but the Eb7 is not a lydian dominant because it is linked to the Bbm7

As I've carefully written, "That Eb7 chord is (could be interpreted) as the Lydian Dominant chord," but...

Yes it is in the sound. You can play the Major scale all the way.

I'm confused a little bit.
The chord progression - Amin7(11)/D7(9) from Oye Como Va - Tito Puente - is ii-V7.

Santana's Oye Como Va - Amin7/D7 chord progression is also ii-V7?

 

[Groove Master]

In the A section progression of Linda Chicana, is the Eb7 functioning as a IV to the Bb- tonic? If so, I’d have expected Eb-7, not a dominant. What am I missing? Thanks.
Bass score attached, chord chart here:

|Bb-7 Eb7 | C-7b5 F7#9 | Bb-7 Eb7 | Db-7 Gb7 |
|CbM7 | FbM7 | C-7b5 | F7#9 |

| i IV ?? | ii V | i IV ?? | ii V | (Going to Cb)
| I (=Cb) | IV (yes?) | ii | V |(Back to Bb-)

Thanks for the pdf I just played the song and my first impression is that I would solo all on Ab scales. I would start with Ionian then Mixo and minor Natural for Cb part. That way you'll find all kind of ideas and melodies based around Ab and you will hear the changes in the harmony better while staying melodic. Try it ;-)

 

[mambo4]

It's simple II-V progression, not I-IV.

Yep.
In a Jazz (or Jazz adjacent) context
Any time I see a minor 7 resolve down a 5th to a dom. 7th
I think of it as a ii-V
It doesn't have to be the ii and V of the key of the song
It could be a 'temporary key center'

I need a pretty compelling reason to not think of it that way.

Now, debating if Oye Como Va is "really" a ii-V probably can go on for ever.
There are many ways to describe it theory wise ("modal" is often thrown at Latin music). Each "theory lense" of viewing such progressions provides a different path to the same destination: playing what sounds good with the chords. You can analyze the chords either way and have interesting implications to explore that will work.

It's like when people try to debate if a Ionian is "really" a major scale.
Each label can apply , but each has its own conceptual baggage.

 

[Groove Master]

As I've carefully written, "That Eb7 chord is (could be interpreted) as the Lydian Dominant chord," but...



I'm confused a little bit.
The chord progression - Amin7(11)/D7(9) from Oye Como Va - Tito Puente - is ii-V7.

Santana's Oye Como Va - Amin7/D7 chord progression is also ii-V7?

Well I'm referring to the I Major scale from where the chords or tune comes from. So if you have Amin7-D7 you are in A Minor Dorian coming from the G major scale because it is his II-V. But the home base or tonality is A Minor but in this case we can almost see it as a modal tune some sort of saying. So my reference is the scale where the chords come from. I hope it makes sense

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Any time you see a minor 7 resolve down a 5th to a dom. 7th

It means that you accept the chords from Oye Como Va - Santana - as ii-V7 without any questions?
Lucky you.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So if you have Amin7-D7 you are in A Minor Dorian coming from the G major scale

It's very difficult to accept Oye Como Va harmony as ii-V7.
Yes, it would be extremely comfortable just to accept it but I'm not there yet.

P.S. During my working days, I have never ever paid too much attention about that kind of questions, but in my aging days of TB, I can allow myself to indulge in that kind of discussions.

 

[Groove Master]

It means that you accept the chords from Oye Como Va - Santana - as ii-V7 without any questions?
Lucky you.

View attachment 5310080

Actually here we have the ambiguity of the writing convention.
Logically there should be a sharp at the key indicating the harmony of G Major but in classical theory if the song is in A minor it has to be the relative of C Major. But then F# as to be notated as an accident like at the end of the page but it is also in the harmony with the D7.

Anyway this is the type of situation where experience or logic as to prevail. ;-)

 

[Groove Master]

It's very difficult to accept Oye Como Va harmony as ii-V7.
Yes, it would be extremely comfortable just to accept it but I'm not there yet.

I know the feeling
It's just that explaining that it is a I-IV in minor and the I doesn't fit any of the 3 main scales ( Harmonic, melodic or natural) is complicated LOL. So it makes more sense to use the Major scale as the source of everything

 

[mambo4]

It means that you accept the chords from Oye Como Va - Santana - as ii-V7 without any questions?
Lucky you.

Hah, I wouldn't dare simplify to that degree. See my updated post.
I have played Oye Como Va Many times,
And in all honesty I thought "A minor plus ears"
Eventually I forgot the A minor bit and it was just "ears"

Yeah it's A Dorian with a major 6th
That was the part "ears" would fix.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Anyway this is the type of situation where experience or logic as to prevail.

I can accept that "offer."

Now, what about the IV7 chord/s in my previously posted video/s?
Instead of i (as ii) to IV7 (or V7), we have
I (I7) to IV7.
What's happening in that case?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I thought "A minor plus ears"

As I've said, it would be very conveniently comfortable to accept that Amin7/D7 vamp as ii-V7, but...
I could not find any hints of G major in the melody of Oye Como Va.
Could you (or anybody else) pinpoint to me (from my previous Oye Como Va sheet) the resting melody point that indicates, "It's in G major?"

Yeah it's A Dorian with a major 6th

Here is how one good musician explains it:


"The whole tune is in A Dorian mode.
You can think of it as being like the A natural minor scale, but with F-sharp instead of F. You can also think of it () as being the G major scale from A to A.
Either way, Dorian has an elegant symmetry when you see it on the circle."

Oye Como Va

 

[Les Fret]

It means that you accept the chords from Oye Como Va - Santana - as ii-V7 without any questions?
Lucky you.

View attachment 5310080

yep that’s just A Dorian.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

yep that’s just A Dorian.

I've found an answer to my question that "fits" my opinion.

"Finally, we can also borrow chords from the Dorian mode, which has a minor sound but a raised sixth degree. This gives it a unique and exotic sound, which can be used to create a more mysterious or adventurous atmosphere.

An excellent example of this technique is Santana's "Oye Como Va."
The song is in A minor, but it uses chords borrowed from A Dorian, such as D and G. These chords create a sense of tension and release, which perfectly complements the Latin rhythm and Carlos Santana's virtuosic guitar playing."

https://fastercapital.com/keyword/oye-como-va.html


Or this:
"The song, written by Tito Puente, is constructed from various instrumental sections, and the single 8 bar chorus is used twice during the song’s duration. Oye Como Va is a modal tune in the A Dorian mode.
Two chords, Am7 and D9, – which form a i – IV progression in A Dorian – provide most of the tune’s harmonic colour."

 

[Groove Master]

As I've said, it would be very conveniently comfortable to accept that Amin7/D7 vamp as ii-V7, but...
I could not find any hints of G major in the melody of Oye Como Va.
Could you (or anybody else) pinpoint to me (from my previous Oye Como Va sheet) the resting melody point that indicates, "It's in G major?"



Here is how one good musician explains it:


"The whole tune is in A Dorian mode.
You can think of it as being like the A natural minor scale, but with F-sharp instead of F. You can also think of it () as being the G major scale from A to A.
Either way, Dorian has an elegant symmetry when you see it on the circle."

Oye Como Va

That is exactly it... like I said.

FYI about the key look at the last bar of page 1. The whole tune doesn't imply melodically any sixth( F or F#) except in the D7 all the way and the end of the melody.

This is the same problem with a modal tune like So what. I've seen so many times the key signature of F Major while this tune is clearly in D minor Dorian. The only escape for copyists is to write it with no key signature not because it is in C Major but because most of the time a modal tune will have no key signature because of the theory convention about keys and notation and the problems of putting all kind of unnecessary and confusing accidentals.

 

[Groove Master]

I've found an answer to my question that "fits" my opinion.

"Finally, we can also borrow chords from the Dorian mode, which has a minor sound but a raised sixth degree. This gives it a unique and exotic sound, which can be used to create a more mysterious or adventurous atmosphere.

An excellent example of this technique is Santana's "Oye Como Va."
The song is in A minor, but it uses chords borrowed from A Dorian, such as D and G. These chords create a sense of tension and release, which perfectly complements the Latin rhythm and Carlos Santana's virtuosic guitar playing."

https://fastercapital.com/keyword/oye-como-va.html


Or this:
"The song, written by Tito Puente, is constructed from various instrumental sections, and the single 8 bar chorus is used twice during the song’s duration. Oye Como Va is a modal tune in the A Dorian mode.
Two chords, Am7 and D9, – which form a i – IV progression in A Dorian – provide most of the tune’s harmonic colour."

To me there is no tension and release in this. It is actually the contrary. It is very plain and diatonic to the key of G Major.

Context is everything though. In the case of OCV the harmony comes from the G Major scale but because the center key is A minor (Dorian) the A minor Blues scale is a great fit (!) to solo with and wouldn't be as fitted in a II-V-I in G Maj.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Context is everything though.

Thank you for your excellent explanation for all TB members interested in this topic.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Personally, I'm not sure how useful it is to think of this as a ii7-V7 in Ab when there's no meaningful resolution to Ab anywhere in the piece. Ab is never established as a tonal center, so there seems no need to tie oneself to that. There are, however, a couple of ii-V resolutions to Bb minor (Cm7b5 to F7#9). I'd suggest that it's more worthwhile to think of this as being in Bb minor, noting that minor tonality can include both the major and minor 6 and both the major and minor 7. Locally, there are a couple of places where you get out of Bb minor for a minute, notably those couple of measures in B (Cb), but that kind of thing happens all the time in jazz, and Bb minor is where you start and end.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

To me there is no tension and release in this. It is actually the contrary. It is very plain and diatonic to the key of G Major.

But there's really no G major harmonic function in the tune, so it's hard to say that it's in the key of G major in any meaningful way. When the tune does go what functions as the dominant, it goes to an E7, not a D7.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Personally, I'm not sure how useful it is to think of this as a ii7-V7 in Ab when there's no meaningful resolution to Ab anywhere in the piece. Ab is never established as a tonal center, so there seems no need to tie oneself to that. T

Help to the rescue!

That has been my primary point.

But there's really no G major harmonic function in the tune, so it's hard to say that it's in the key of G major in any meaningful way.

Ditto.

 

[Les Fret]

I've found an answer to my question that "fits" my opinion.

"Finally, we can also borrow chords from the Dorian mode, which has a minor sound but a raised sixth degree. This gives it a unique and exotic sound, which can be used to create a more mysterious or adventurous atmosphere.

An excellent example of this technique is Santana's "Oye Como Va."
The song is in A minor, but it uses chords borrowed from A Dorian, such as D and G. These chords create a sense of tension and release, which perfectly complements the Latin rhythm and Carlos Santana's virtuosic guitar playing."

https://fastercapital.com/keyword/oye-como-va.html


Or this:
"The song, written by Tito Puente, is constructed from various instrumental sections, and the single 8 bar chorus is used twice during the song’s duration. Oye Como Va is a modal tune in the A Dorian mode.
Two chords, Am7 and D9, – which form a i – IV progression in A Dorian – provide most of the tune’s harmonic colour."

Yes. Am-D can be seen as II V in G major or I IV in A Dorian. I would opt for the last but it’s essentially the same.