Harmonic analysis Linda Chicana - help, please!

[Groove Master]

But there's really no G major harmonic function in the tune, so it's hard to say that it's in the key of G major in any meaningful way. When the tune does go what functions as the dominant, it goes to an E7, not a D7.

My point is that the notes from the chords come from G Major. I know the tune is not really in G Major but the melody AND the chords do fit in there and there is no traditional minor scales that fits either that vamp beside the A minor Dorian which is built on the G Major scale. Everything is related to the Mother Major scale

 

[Groove Master]

Personally, I'm not sure how useful it is to think of this as a ii7-V7 in Ab when there's no meaningful resolution to Ab anywhere in the piece. Ab is never established as a tonal center, so there seems no need to tie oneself to that. There are, however, a couple of ii-V resolutions to Bb minor (Cm7b5 to F7#9). I'd suggest that it's more worthwhile to think of this as being in Bb minor, noting that minor tonality can include both the major and minor 6 and both the major and minor 7. Locally, there are a couple of places where you get out of Bb minor for a minute, notably those couple of measures in B (Cb), but that kind of thing happens all the time in jazz, and Bb minor is where you start and end.

I know but how about all those jazz tunes that have a ton of II-V not related to the key signature. They are all II-V related to a Major or minor key momentarily. Same here if I look at the melody of the tune there is a clear statement to go from a Dorian sound to a more traditional minor harmonic sound back to Dorian then modulate in Cb Major.

Anyway for me it is way more accurate to explain this non-traditional harmony by linking the very strong sound of the II-V together than anything else.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

My point is that the notes from the chords come from G Major. I know the tune is not really in G Major but the melody AND the chords do fit in there and there is no traditional minor scales that fits either that vamp beside the A minor Dorian which is built on the G Major scale. Everything is related to the Mother Major scale

Of course, you're right that the notes and chords fit the key of G major, as well as A dorian. My suggestion, though, is that in some cases at least, it benefits understanding and utilization if we "cut the cord" between the mode and the presumed related major scale and try to understand the mode as a harmonic/melodic world of its own.

 

[Groove Master]

Of course, you're right that the notes and chords fit the key of G major, as well as A dorian. My suggestion, though, is that in some cases at least, it benefits understanding and utilization if we "cut the cord" between the mode and the presumed related major scale and try to understanding the mode as a harmonic/melodic world of its own.

I actually love the cord between modes and the major scale. It's all related to the major scale especially minor keys. It is what make modes what they are isn't it? It is for me anyway ;-)

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I actually love the cord between modes and the major scale. It's all related to the major scale especially minor keys. It is what make modes what they are isn't it? It is for me anyway ;-)

I feel just the opposite! To me, it's the fact that modes *aren't* major keys/scales and *don't* work quite the way standard Western functional harmony does that makes them interesting and distinct. But to each his/her own!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I feel just the opposite! To me, it's the fact that modes *aren't* major keys/scales and *don't* work quite the way standard Western functional harmony does that makes them interesting and distinct. But to each his/her own!

Thank you.

 

[Groove Master]

I feel just the opposite! To me, it's the fact that modes *aren't* major keys/scales and *don't* work quite the way standard Western functional harmony does that makes them interesting and distinct. But to each his/her own!

Actually it is kind of contradictory saying that there is no relationship between modes and the Major scale since they are derived from it. No?
In application they are so useful. Especially in Jazz/Pop.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Actually it is kind of contradictory saying that there is no relationship between modes and the Major scale since they are derived from it. No?

I don't think I quite said that, did I? But in any case, I don't think there's a contradiction. We use the word "mode" to refer both to (1) a scale and (2) a key, or "key." I put "key" in quotes because some feel only the classic major and minor can truly be keys, but a mode can of course be a key in itself *in a broad sense*, meaning that it has a tonal center and set of notes associated with it. My point was just that even if you can generate the seven basic mode *scales* from the major scale, that doesn't mean that the *"keys"* associated with those modes function in a way that is meaningfully related to the functioning of the original major key. So yes, we can and do derive the A dorian scale from the G major scale, but that doesn't mean that the harmonic function in an A dorian piece is usefully related to the harmonic function characteristic of G major. Thus, if you want to talk about how an A dorian piece is working or what to play in it, you don't really have to talk about G major at all ... provided that you know what A dorian is.

To underscore the point that the modes are harmonic "worlds" in themselves, not necessarily grafted to any major scale, I've often found it useful, in discussing this stuff with individual students, to have them generate all the modes from the same starting note--for example, C lydian, C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc.

In application they are so useful. Especially in Jazz/Pop.

They're good to know, certainly--and I know you and I both know them--but I think they're often resorted to when they aren't really needed. For instance, to understand basic Western functional harmony, you don't need modes at all. They're completely unnecessary *for that particular purpose*. You can understand all the basic concepts without touching on modes at all, and in fact most of the standard harmony books I'm aware of do just that. Where the modes do become useful is precisely those areas that don't strictly fit classical harmony--which as you point out is often the case in jazz and pop, not to mention a great deal of folk music. (I spent a number of years playing a lot of Irish music, much of which uses modes extensively.)

 

[Groove Master]

I don't think I quite said that, did I? But in any case, I don't think there's a contradiction. We use the word "mode" to refer both to (1) a scale and (2) a key, or "key." I put "key" in quotes because some feel only the classic major and minor can truly be keys, but a mode can of course be a key in itself *in a broad sense*, meaning that it has a tonal center and set of notes associated with it. My point was just that even if you can generate the seven basic mode *scales* from the major scale, that doesn't mean that the *"keys"* associated with those modes function in a way that is meaningfully related to the functioning of the original major key. So yes, we can and do derive the A dorian scale from the G major scale, but that doesn't mean that the harmonic function in an A dorian piece is usefully related to the harmonic function characteristic of G major. Thus, if you want to talk about how an A dorian piece is working or what to play in it, you don't really have to talk about G major at all ... provided that you know what A dorian is.

To underscore the point that the modes are harmonic "worlds" in themselves, not necessarily grafted to any major scale, I've often found it useful, in discussing this stuff with individual students, to have them generate all the modes from the same starting note--for example, C lydian, C ionian, C dorian, C phrygian, etc.



They're good to know, certainly--and I know you and I both know them--but I think they're often resorted to when they aren't really needed. For instance, to understand basic Western functional harmony, you don't need modes at all. They're completely unnecessary *for that particular purpose*. You can understand all the basic concepts without touching on modes at all, and in fact most of the standard harmony books I'm aware of do just that. Where the modes do become useful is precisely those areas that don't strictly fit classical harmony--which as you point out is often the case in jazz and pop, not to mention a great deal of folk music. (I spent a number of years playing a lot of Irish music, much of which uses modes extensively.)

Thanks Richard I understand your point. Me on the other hand I like to use them and teach them for their practical use and application in all kind of music because they are a big part of the diatonic harmony that we play and hear everywhere. And as bass players we have to avoid off-notes that cloud the harmony in most cases.

So for the OP I still think that it's ok to call the first bar a II-V based on Ab instead of trying to explain that this harmony is based on a Dorian but not really because of the following ii-v in Bb min. And that even if its a functional chord progression it is a bit twisted because of mismatch between Dorian and Eolian or harmonic minor harmony.
I think the OP tune is actually a sand trap about it on purpose ;-)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

A very good explanation about that i-IV chord movement.


Modal Schemas

Megan Lavengood
Modal Schemas – OPEN MUSIC THEORY

 

[Groove Master]

A very good explanation about that i-IV chord movement.


Modal Schemas

Megan Lavengood
Modal Schemas – OPEN MUSIC THEORY
View attachment 5311147

View attachment 5311148

Good explanation here, thanks. But to me we are talking the same things with different words ;-)

 

[mambo4]

Do our note choices actually change if it's a 'vanilla' ii-V vs a 'Dorian' i-VI ?
The chord tones are the same (well maybe not in the upper extensions)
Other tones are dictated much more by style than theory in my experience

I honestly don't see an advantage in one lense over the other
Except maybe to scribe a hard line of "yes this is A minor and no way is it G major"
Which suppose has its use
But the "available notes" don't change

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Except maybe to scribe a hard line of "yes this is A minor and no way is it G major"

That was my point from the beginning.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm just listening to Robin Thicke's, "Take Me Higher" track.
After INTRO (around 0:35), we have a repetitive i - IV chord movement - Gmin7 - C7(C9.)
And even my aging brain said, "It's that Dorian shuttle again."
Thank you TalkBass.

 

[albertus]

about #50
Harmonic analysis Linda Chicana - help, please!
when I was studying modal harmony at Berklee, my teacher told me to avoid any type of the II-V if I wanted to keep a tune modal.
to the ear, a modal harmony is weaker than a tonal harmony. so anything that distracts your ear, will be difficult to counteract

 

[Groove Master]

Do our note choices actually change if it's a 'vanilla' ii-V vs a 'Dorian' i-VI ?
The chord tones are the same (well maybe not in the upper extensions)
Other tones are dictated much more by style than theory in my experience

I honestly don't see an advantage in one lense over the other
Except maybe to scribe a hard line of "yes this is A minor and no way is it G major"
Which suppose has its use
But the "available notes" don't change

But on the other hand if we look at the chords and melody of OCV, there should be a F# at the key

 

[Groove Master]

about #50
Harmonic analysis Linda Chicana - help, please!
when I was studying modal harmony at Berklee, my teacher told me to avoid any type of the II-V if I wanted to keep a tune modal.
to the ear, a modal harmony is weaker than a tonal harmony. so anything that distracts your ear, will be difficult to counteract

Yes but this piece is not a modal tune actually. And yes the II-V is the strongest movement to define or hear a key.

Like even in So What PC is always playing the V to I when the chord changes occur even if it is not a chord he implies it by announcing the next change. Always very effective.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The following song, "Got 2 Be Down" by Robin Thicke has a chord progression that we've been discussing in this thread - an example of the Dorian Shuttle.

INTRO/VERSE.
If we don't look/hear what the bass notes are, then, we would say,
"We have a "money chord" progression with a descending (chromatically) bass line/cliche:

Dmin| Dmin | Dmin(maj7) | Dmin(maj7) | Dmin7 | Dmin7 | G7 | G 7 | , but...

The song's arrangers have decided to "re-harmonize" ("I don't want that bass line cliche") the bass line.
Instead of playing the D note, the bass starts with F (the relative minor,) and we have different bass notes:

F - F - G - G - A - A - D - D

And the chords become:

Dmin/F or F6
Dmin(maj7)/G or Aaug7/G - (ascending) G A C# F, or Faug/G
Dmin7/A or F6/A and
G7/D or Dmin6.

Pre-Chorus:
Dmin6 (that 6th in the chord reminds us of Dorian) | Dmin6 | A7

Whatever the chord names are, we have our TONIC as Dmin (as Dorian Shuttle due to that Dmin minor scale with sharp 6th.)

Chorus:
(The Dorian Shuttle disappears.)

Dmin7 | Gmin6 | Gmin6 | Dmin7 | Dmin7 |