Double Bass Headphones

[redtomfunk]

Hi all,
how are your experiences with double bass and headphones?

I have no problem with bass guitar (I go only through DI, no mics). When I practise on my Marcustico (haven`t tried with my double bass) I feel I have a good rich sound through a speaker but in heaphones I get a sound that doesn`t cut (missing mids).
I have top quality equipment (Sarno V8, Sarno black box, Headway EDB VAP preamp, Ehrlund mic, various mics, UAD Apollo)
Is it something any of you guys have experienced.
As headphones I use some Phil Jones Bass ones. I plan to change them next year but it would be interesting to hear whether you guys have got advices also for headphones that make a difference.

For the moment I am thinking that I probably lack a cab sim

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The only reason I can think of to use headphones with a double bass is to practice finding the range for an upcoming recording session, where it can sometimes be disconcerting to hear the bass in the mix if you are recording in the booth away from the other instruments. In those situations, I usually resort to some variation of the time, honored “one phone off one phone on” scenario.

I think the problem is the use of headphones themselves, which can’t really re-create the sound of the bass in the way that we hear it naturally. On a recording session last year, the engineer put me through an amazing $12,000 vintage tube Mic, and the resulting recording sounded fantastic. But tracking was still the same issue with not hearing the bass in the way that I usually do. So I kept one of the phones off and the other one. I think it’s just the nature of the beast.

 

[JBarz]

Headphones are a giant can of worms on their own. I suggest you start following the r/headphones subreddit to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Personally, I’ve modified a pair of Grado cans to be extra beefy for bass practice/study. I can’t tell you how invaluable it’s been to have a pair of cans tuned to double bass for transcribing otherwise faint lines. Not at all ‘accurate’ or ‘flat’ - not great for mixing, but different tools for different jobs.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The problem with headphones is that the sound does only reach your ears, not your body/bones.

A low frequency shaker that would be driven by the amplified bass signal too might bring a bit of that back, but then it must be mounted to a bit larger plate that gets attached to the players body (sitting on it or mounted at the back are my best ideas for that).

I never tried it (I don‘t own a shaker), but that might bring back a bit of the body feeling that you miss with the headphones only.

With headphones only it might help if you can get an individual mix, not the general one for all players, on your headphones with a stronger bass signal, but the studio might not have enough monitor channels or separate headphone amps to allow that.
Of course EQ typically goes on both, recorded track and monitors. Monitors might have EQ too, but that applies to the whole mix of instruments there.

 

[redtomfunk]

Thanks for all the good answers.
Anyway probably my headphones are not the best for acoustic instruments. Mine are PJB H850 (Edifier H850, close back).
Maybe different headphones with a flatter response and open back would help

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm hard pressed to think of a situation in which I would be listening to my acoustic instrument through headphones, with the exception of DURRL'S recording scenario. Although the last two recording sessions I was on were done close mic'ed, behind goboes, but the full quartet in an open room with no headphones....

 

[ole Jason]

Open back headphones do help but mostly because you'll hear more of the actual bass in the room. The downside is that if you're recording and playing along with a click or stems they can bleed through if the mic is sensitive enough. I do recording sessions at home for a few friends fairly regularly and they'll send me tracks that just need bass added. I generally use close backed headphones and just turn up the bass track loud enough that I can make sure the intonation is on. Adding a HPF can also help you hear the bass better, you can set it higher than it needs to be to really bring out the mids to make sure you're in tune.

All of this is with recording in mind. I never practice upright with headphones.

 

[redtomfunk]

The whole reason for me asking is I normally rehearse in headphones with the Marcustico which doesn`t have enough acoustic sound. The reason I am thinking about open back headphones is I have read they normally have a more natural sound with less bass boom. I am considering AKG K701/702 which should be quite flat in response or beyerdynamic DT-990/DT-900

 

[redtomfunk]

I have fixed my issue by changing headphones and using the phase switch on my preamp.
I have always thought of using the phase switch to maximise bass frequencies but it worked against me so from now on I`ll be using it more creatively

 

[Ric Vice]

Glad you found a solution. I’ve only used headphones for practicing EB when I was traveling and couldn’t use an amp or recording.
I love the Beyer Dynamic’s with the partially open earpiece because there’s adequate isolation for recording DB with tracks and you get the
acoustic sound coming off the instrument For years I used Fostex T50RP’s because the low end frequency's response is 7 hz, their flat earpieces and
you replace the connecting cable, sliders, and ear pads.

 

[redtomfunk]

Anyway for my purposes the AKG K702 are great!
I am currently trying the AKG K271 mkII to have a closed back alternative for when I want to record bass with a mic too.
They are good as they are not very bassy but the sound is more boxy then the K702

 

[loukash]

I am currently trying the AKG K271 mkII to have a closed back alternative for when I want to record bass with a mic too.
They are good as they are not very bassy

My studio headphones of choice since 16 years! Their linearity is the killer feature. Being a sound engineer as well as a musician, I also enjoy their wear comfort.
However, some of the plastic parts will break with time and extensive use. My K271 already has quite a few bumps and bruises:

As you can see, good ole metal screws to the rescue…

I haven't used them with a DB yet, though, as I'm a DB rookie…
Oddly enough, when we did a short rehearsal room recording session with one of my bands a few weeks ago – my first such session playing a DB – from my headphones arsenal I eventually picked my old DJ headphones Sony MDR V500 which have quite a strong mid boost (a good thing in a DJ booth environment) to make the DB tone stand out in my headphone mix.

 

[brianrost]

When I practise on my Marcustico (haven`t tried with my double bass) I feel I have a good rich sound through a speaker but in heaphones I get a sound that doesn`t cut (missing mids).

Like others have noted, I only use phones with DB when recording and only when I have to, like when I’m stuck in an iso booth.

If you like the sound out of the speakers but not the phones, guess what…it’s the phones having different frequency response than the speakers. If you feel mids are missing, either the speakers are hyping the mids or the phones are scooping them out.

The usual suspects that I see the most in studios these days (not that I’m there all that often):

AKG K240
Sennheiser 280 Pro (what I own)
Sony 7506 (supposedly the most common phones in studio use today)

The Sennheiser HD 414 phones of the 70s were ubiquitous in studios, really popularizing open back phones especially the phones that came with Walkman style devices as can be seen in the photo. They were much lighter than the Koss phones of the era and the open back gave more room bleed as a side benefit. I don’t see them in use any more and Sennheiser no longer makes anything like them.

Most modern consumer phones have very hyped frequency response, especially in the bass. Beats, for example deliberately overemphasizes the bass. For some reason when I used to practice back in the 80s with headphone amps, my phones were farting out. Today I can use the same phones with my audio interface, a MOTU M2, and the low end is OK. The MOTU has no EQ, so was it just the sound of the headphone amps that was my problem? I’ll never know, since my current setup works fine. The biggest difference I hear between my Sennheiser 280 Pros and the cheap consumer phones I have lying around is in the clarity and depth of the lows, the mids vary widely.

The so-called Harman curve was developed by Harmon International after studies asking listeners what sound they liked best in headphones. In the graph, OE means over ear, IE means in ear.

Surprise, boosted bass and really boosted upper mids (for “air”?) with relatively flat midrange up to 1000 Hz. Surprisingly, while they were developed before the Harman curve results were published, the Sony 7506s come close to this curve. Amp afficiandos will also recognize it as very similar to the tone stack found in Fender tube amplifiers when the bass and treble controls are dialed upwards, the popular Sadowsky bass guitar preamplifier, and the “smiley face” settings on graphic EQs. Follow the link above to read some of the rationale as to why people seem to like this over truly flat response.

 

[JBarz]

kinda on/off topic, but I recently got a pair of Hifiman Arya planar headphones (same tech as the Magnapan speakers) and holy moly - it’s a whole other world. Putting on well recorded modern big band recordings like Wynton’s Lincon Center stuff is a whole different experience. The detail and instrument separation makes all the other headphone experiences I’ve had seem like distorted boombox technology. With older recordings they dont seem to make as much of a difference, but it’s still there. I’ve been having a ball falling in love with Ellington all over again.

 

[redtomfunk]

For the benefit of others reading I have also tried the Beyedynamic DT 770 PRO (80 ohm) I prefer those over the AKG K271 mkii since they give a sweeter sound a bit less mid forward and with nicer tones overall. The AKG K271 are far too straight. I can imagine why they are good for mixing but for tracking I feel the DT770 pro sound better out of the box (and as a consequence make you play better).
Over these I still prefer the AKG K702 (open back) and I suspect I might like other open backs too

I need to remind that I am referring to the sound of an acoustic bass mostly with a piezo pickup

 

[jj.833]

In a studio, in my experience, they always have some better than cheap but not very expensive headphones that don't sound very nice but are good in mids for good tracking, lightweight on the head and with a cable. Some headphones are bigger than others. I'm used to have my head very close to the neck, so I tend to hit the neck with the headphones, and I would prefer something very thin, preferably open. But I manage with what they give me, and I haven't spent that much time in studio for thinking about obtaining my own recording headphones.

For listening to the sound, the only recipe I trust is to use any good enough headphones for a few years to learn to read them. Everyone has his own preference. Beware of too heavy and too closed headphones.

 

[crd]

I'm used to have my head very close to the neck, so I tend to hit the neck with the headphones, and I would prefer something very thin, preferably open. But I manage with what they give me, and I haven't spent that much time in studio for thinking about obtaining my own recording headphones.

Me too. It drives me nuts. I don't think it effects my playing but it definitely makes me feel uncomfortable. I am going to use my in ear earbud monitors for an upcoming session. I've been practicing with them. They have their own issues but at least I don't knock them against the fingerboard.