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Double Bass Health Related Issues To Playing

Fergie Fulton

Fergie Fulton

Nov 22, 2008
4,652
1,056
Braintree
Disclosures
Retrovibe Artist rota
#1
2014 Up-date.
This is a thread about health aspects that could arise out of playing bass.
Because of the complex nature of such a thread it has be categorised in to main groups.
Under each heading you will find relevant information. Under some there are multiple links to provide a balanced view point of information.

If you are suffering any kind of health problems only a qualified medical professional after a face to face consultation and examination can give you a correct and beneficial diagnosis. This is merely a guide to those looking for information, its use and interpretation is the responsibility of the person using it.

It is presented in sections dealing with areas of the body and/related problems for ease of use.
The links, and the terminologies used, can be be used to help do a wider search on the web for other searching for more specific information.

This post is just a guide to information in the form of links.
These links may have links to other material, so please feel free to use them, but they are not endorsed, or reflect the views of myself or Talkbass.

If you want to discuss certain points that may be raised please start a new thread for more information.
If you need help to find a link or information please start a thread and an answer will be provided if available.

These links will be updated as more information becomes available as they are ever developing subjects.
If any links fail, or the information is not relevent anymore, please inform, so it can be modified or removed.

Some facts about hands, a quick introduction
www.eatonhand.com/hw/facts.htm
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
www.talkbass.com/forum/f21/carpal-tunnel-syndrome-cts-info-922789/

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome ( CTS )
www.talkbass.com/forum/f21/carpal-tunnel-syndrome-cts-info-922789/
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
turner-white.com/pdf/hp_jul00_tinel.pdf
And in case you missed it the TB thread of Carpal Tunnel
Invalid Link Removed

Pinched nerve symptoms
www.spine-health.com/conditions/back-pain/spinal-cord-and-spinal-nerve-roots

The radial nerve explained
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_nerve
www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Radial-Nerve-Lesion-(C5-8).htm

The ulnar nerve explained
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_nerve

Sciatic Pain
http://www.medicinenet.com/sciatica/article.htm

Nerve Flossing
http://youtu.be/7xi_yAWCqhI
Link Removed

Cubital Tunnel syndrome, sometimes mistaken for CTS as symptoms appear to be similar
emedicine.medscape.com/article/1231663-overview

Tendonitis complaints
www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/tendon_disorders.html#_1_4

Trigger finger
www.mayoclinic.com/health/trigger-finger/DS00155

Dupuytrens Contracture
www.eatonhand.com/hw/hw009.htm

Swollen hands
www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/hand_swelling.htm
walking.about.com/cs/med/a/swollenhands.htm

Cold Hands/Poor Circulation
www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/cold-hands/basics/definition/sym-20050648
www.medic8.com/healthguide/articles/raynauds.html

Rheumatism & Arthritis
Invalid Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Invalid Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8310792.stm

Bony lumps on the fingers (nodes)
Link Removed

Neck pain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiplash_%28medicine%29
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Neck Stretches.
tranquilitycs.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/three-simple-neck-stretches-to-relieve-neck-pain-and-stress/

Shoulder area
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Back pain
Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Back Stretches
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Varicose veins
Invalid Link Removed

Hearing conditions.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
m.wikihow.com/Cure-Tinnitus

Problems with the eyes
Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
vision.about.com/od/sportsvision/Conditions_and_Complications.htm

In this section below some basic anatomical information needed to understand and make decisions about your health.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Pain.
Invalid Link Removed
http://www.britishpainsociety.org/patient_faq.htm#q1

Blisters
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blister
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calluses
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Basic motor skills examination as a reference to what should happen in one.
edinfo.med.nyu.edu/courseware/neurosurgery/motor.html

Bones of the hand
Invalid Link Removed
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpus

Muscle groups of the hand and arm
http://youtu.be/BTEjO6F1-vI

In this link you will find details of many Specialist Companies and Medical Facilities, please feel free to browse. None of these services are endorsed by TB or myself.
http://ww2.handuniversity.com
http://youtu.be/bbwV974mlJA
http://littleguitarworks.com
 
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#2
I've copied this extremely informative links thread to both the Jazz and Orchestral technique forums, so please don't report the double posting. I'll stick both, as they could potentially help a lot of people understand the mechanisms which enable us all to play and some common things that can go wrong with them.
 
#9
Fergie Fulton said:
2014 Up-date.
This is a thread about health aspects that could arise out of playing bass.
Because of the complex nature of such a thread it has be categorised in to main groups.
Under each heading you will find relevant information. Under some there are multiple links to provide a balanced view point of information.

If you are suffering any kind of health problems only a qualified medical professional after a face to face consultation and examination can give you a correct and beneficial diagnosis. This is merely a guide to those looking for information, its use and interpretation is the responsibility of the person using it.

It is presented in sections dealing with areas of the body and/related problems for ease of use.
The links, and the terminologies used, can be be used to help do a wider search on the web for other searching for more specific information.

This post is just a guide to information in the form of links.
These links may have links to other material, so please feel free to use them, but they are not endorsed, or reflect the views of myself or Talkbass.

If you want to discuss certain points that may be raised please start a new thread for more information.
If you need help to find a link or information please start a thread and an answer will be provided if available.

These links will be updated as more information becomes available as they are ever developing subjects.
If any links fail, or the information is not relevent anymore, please inform, so it can be modified or removed.

Some facts about hands, a quick introduction
www.eatonhand.com/hw/facts.htm
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Carpal Tunnel Syndrome ( CTS )
www.talkbass.com/forum/f21/carpal-tunnel-syndrome-cts-info-922789/
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
turner-white.com/pdf/hp_jul00_tinel.pdf
And in case you missed it the TB thread of Carpal Tunnel
www.talkbass.com/forum/f21/carpal-tunnel-syndrome-cts-info-922789/

Pinched nerve symptoms
www.spine-health.com/conditions/back-pain/spinal-cord-and-spinal-nerve-roots

The radial nerve explained
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_nerve
www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Radial-Nerve-Lesion-(C5-8).htm

The ulnar nerve explained
Ulnar nerve - Wikipedia

Sciatic Pain
Sciatica Causes, Treatment, Symptoms & Exercises

Nerve Flossing

Link Removed

Cubital Tunnel syndrome, sometimes mistaken for CTS as symptoms appear to be similar
emedicine.medscape.com/article/1231663-overview

Tendonitis complaints
www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/diseases/tendon_disorders.html#_1_4

Trigger finger
www.mayoclinic.com/health/trigger-finger/DS00155

Dupuytrens Contracture
www.eatonhand.com/hw/hw009.htm

Swollen hands
www.wrongdiagnosis.com/sym/hand_swelling.htm
walking.about.com/cs/med/a/swollenhands.htm

Cold Hands/Poor Circulation
www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/cold-hands/basics/definition/sym-20050648
www.medic8.com/healthguide/articles/raynauds.html

Rheumatism & Arthritis
www.avogel.co.uk/health/muscles-joints/rheumatism/
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
www.medicinenet.com/arthritis/article.htm
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8310792.stm

Bony lumps on the fingers (nodes)
Link Removed

Neck pain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiplash_%28medicine%29
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Neck Stretches.
tranquilitycs.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/three-simple-neck-stretches-to-relieve-neck-pain-and-stress/

Shoulder area
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Back pain
Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Back Stretches
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Varicose veins
Invalid Link Removed

Hearing conditions.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
m.wikihow.com/Cure-Tinnitus

Problems with the eyes
Link Removed
www.medicinenet.com/eye_strain/article.htm
vision.about.com/od/sportsvision/Conditions_and_Complications.htm

In this section below some basic anatomical information needed to understand and make decisions about your health.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Pain.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Pain/Pages/Longtermpain.aspx
Page not Found | British Pain Society

Blisters
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blister
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calluses
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Basic motor skills examination as a reference to what should happen in one.
edinfo.med.nyu.edu/courseware/neurosurgery/motor.html

Bones of the hand
Invalid Link Removed
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpus

Muscle groups of the hand and arm


In this link you will find details of many Specialist Companies and Medical Facilities, please feel free to browse. None of these services are endorsed by TB or myself.
http://ww2.handuniversity.com

http://littleguitarworks.com
Click to expand...
 
#11
marimbaguy said:
I have a student who is missing all the fingers on his right hand except his thumb and half of his first finger. Is there a strap, or glove, or device that can help him hold his bow?
Click to expand...

Not that i know of that is generally available because the specific nature of the injury to the task will have many variables, so a one stop solution will not work.
Any one stop solution means the person has to adapt to suit it, what you want is an adaption to suit your student.
As with bowing the question is style/technique...is it French or German ( over hand or under hand) so the adaption will have to suit one of those criteria.

so i will pose some questions and then pose some answers.

How much wrist and forearm sweep is available from the student?

If there is some capacity to hold a bow then what needs to be worked out is how much more needs to be added, rather than re think the whole situation.

The student has his thumb and part of the forefinger is this enough to hold a bow correctly?

As with the two styles already mentioned, they are about holding the bow to the strings, as well as holding the bow for movement within the arc of playing, so the weight of the bow may be an issue.
if the bow can be held between the base thumb and the forefinger then maybe a third option for hold is needed. Maybe hold the hand palm facing the arc of movement?
OK now we have to restrict the wrist movement we may get as the wrists hinging action may now be a factor for smooth bowing? A good or bad factor will depend on experimenting with it and comparing results with what is trying to be achieved. If it sounds right then it is right, how it looks is not an issue, technique is just the invention of necessity to achieve what we want to play.

If the bow could be held at the base of the thumb and forefinger what adapting to the bow could be added to make holding it, or stop it slipping, easier?

Now as bows are expensive then what is needed is an old bow so we can play around with the frog design. Since the frog is the only art we touch then the frog needs to be looked at. Frogs are designed to be held by players with a thumb and four fingers, so a standard frog is not ideal for players missing fingers or suffering injury (either through disease, miss use or over use), so looking at the frog design would be a good place to start. Maybe a frog with a loop on it, either in leather, wood, or metal could be added to help hold the bow. maybe the placement of some lead tape to affect the balance could be used to help weight the bow to the strings?

Just a few thoughts, but i would say if there is a school or University near by that maybe a talk with their engineering dept would give you a better insight into how best solve the problem for the student.
For me i would say find out what the student can do, rather than not do, and find a way to improve what is there..then see what develops from that.....our need to "overcome" always amazes me what the human body can do when the mind is set to solve it.

Good luck and i would be interested in any follow ups to this story.
 
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#12
Could a German bow frog be held firmly against the palm of the R hand with a strong rubber band or Velcro so that the thumb and index finger are free to provide leverage and guide the bow? If the end of the frog were more square than the usual angle this would be comfortable and allow the usual ergonomics of the bow stroking. Pizzicato could be done with the thumb while the bow hangs point-down.
 
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#13
Fergie Fulton said:
Not that i know of that is generally available because the specific nature of the injury to the task will have many variables, so a one stop solution will not work.
Any one stop solution means the person has to adapt to suit it, what you want is an adaption to suit your student.
As with bowing the question is style/technique...is it French or German ( over hand or under hand) so the adaption will have to suit one of those criteria.

so i will pose some questions and then pose some answers.

How much wrist and forearm sweep is available from the student?

If there is some capacity to hold a bow then what needs to be worked out is how much more needs to be added, rather than re think the whole situation.

The student has his thumb and part of the forefinger is this enough to hold a bow correctly?

As with the two styles already mentioned, they are about holding the bow to the strings, as well as holding the bow for movement within the arc of playing, so the weight of the bow may be an issue.
if the bow can be held between the base thumb and the forefinger then maybe a third option for hold is needed. Maybe hold the hand palm facing the arc of movement?
OK now we have to restrict the wrist movement we may get as the wrists hinging action may now be a factor for smooth bowing? A good or bad factor will depend on experimenting with it and comparing results with what is trying to be achieved. If it sounds right then it is right, how it looks is not an issue, technique is just the invention of necessity to achieve what we want to play.

If the bow could be held at the base of the thumb and forefinger what adapting to the bow could be added to make holding it, or stop it slipping, easier?

Now as bows are expensive then what is needed is an old bow so we can play around with the frog design. Since the frog is the only art we touch then the frog needs to be looked at. Frogs are designed to be held by players with a thumb and four fingers, so a standard frog is not ideal for players missing fingers or suffering injury (either through disease, miss use or over use), so looking at the frog design would be a good place to start. Maybe a frog with a loop on it, either in leather, wood, or metal could be added to help hold the bow. maybe the placement of some lead tape to affect the balance could be used to help weight the bow to the strings?

Just a few thoughts, but i would say if there is a school or University near by that maybe a talk with their engineering dept would give you a better insight into how best solve the problem for the student.
For me i would say find out what the student can do, rather than not do, and find a way to improve what is there..then see what develops from that.....our need to "overcome" always amazes me what the human body can do when the mind is set to solve it.

Good luck and i would be interested in any follow ups to this story.
Click to expand...

Just thinking outloud - permanently affix (glue?) a bicycle glove (the palm area) to the bow frog. See below.
The user would then fasten (there is a Velcro strap) the glove/bow combination to the hand.
Worth a try?
I'll keep thinking, as well.
photo(264).JPG

photo(265).JPG
 
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#14
Well, I just got diagnosed with stage 3 arthritis of the right hand thumb joint. Bone on bone. Holding a pick is impossible now for any extended time. I like the extra punch a pick gave me. Also, my thumb slap is not what it used to be. I,m stuck with the two fingers now. At least it's not the right hand, so my fingering is still good. I can still play, but I use to take pride in being proficient in 3 "styles".
 
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#15
Good one, Don. Perhaps a bespoke mitt of softer, thinner breathable leather? Eg, thin perforated leather driving glove with trimmed down fingers sewn to form the mitt through which the index finger protrudes. It could be cut away to expose most of the large thumb muscle.

Cheers, DP
 
Last edited:
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#16
David Potts said:
Good one, Don. Perhaps a bespoke mitt of softer, thinner breathable leather? Eg, thin perforated leather driving glove with trimmed down fingers sewn to form the mitt through which the index finger protrudes. It could be cut away to expose most of the large thumb muscle.

Cheers, DP
Click to expand...

Yes, It remains to be seen how much "coupling" between the glove/hand/Frog will be necessary.
Yes, and... use 3M Velcro Dual Lock (a kind of Heavy Duty Velcro, affixed to the glove and Frog), to enable adjustment and refinement.
See below:
$_35.jpg
 
#17
It occurs to me that maybe a strap could be used. A strap can be carried in the pocket, or in the bow case, and is a simple non-intrusive solution.
Weight Lifters use straps to reinforce their hold on the bar, and help spread the load from the fingers.
check out the link, maybe a smaller/slimmer version of it could be of use. After wrapping the wrist and hand the thumb could then trap the strapagainst the bow worth some gentle pressure in the hold.

 
#18
Because the palm of the hand is slightly cupped when holding the bow I am thinking that the frog needs to be pressed into it with positive but flexible pressure. I have just bought a German bow for one of my adult students and will try fooling around with two strong(er) rubber bands somehow criss-crossed, or a single band, or.........

DP
 
#19
Don Kasper said:
Just thinking outloud - permanently affix (glue?) a bicycle glove (the palm area) to the bow frog. See below.
The user would then fasten (there is a Velcro strap) the glove/bow combination to the hand.
Worth a try?
I'll keep thinking, as well.
View attachment 1003272
View attachment 1003274
Click to expand...
Great ideas Don! I've uploaded some pics of his hand to help you see exactly what we are working with. Your responses are wonderful. I will experiment with the german hold and the glove and with some kind of strap and let you know the results.
 

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#20
marimbaguy said:
Great ideas Don! I've uploaded some pics of his hand to help you see exactly what we are working with. Your responses are wonderful. I will experiment with the german hold and the glove and with some kind of strap and let you know the results.
Click to expand...

Is there any flexibility or movement of the fingers? (past the palm.) It looks like there might be (!) - this would be helpful in forming a slight cupping of the hand, (as Mr. Potts mentioned), which is the ideal shape, IMO.
Some Trial and Error might lead to a workable solution.
Keep me posted.
And...GOOD on you for taking this challenge on.
 

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