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Help achieving a full sound without the volume
- Thread starter Bluto
- Start date
I’m a fan of FrequenSee, which was relatively inexpensive. Do it for enough years and you’ll be able to do it by pitch without a tool.
Also seconding the comments about EQ - if you’re not ringing out your mains and monitors with a global EQ, it’s an easy way to tame bad (and fatiguing) tones to sound great with less work. Tons of how-to on YouTube.
The problem seems to be clearly explained in your OP. The instruments were completely cut out of the system so they did not sound good, and the vocals were not turned down enough. Providing your stage volume is low enough, the fix is the properly balance the mix. As @Paulabass mentioned, some light compression can help smooth things out and keep the volume down. Unfortunately this is not an easy task to do mid show without a skilled audio tech running sound for you.
In the event your stage volume is too loud and you simply cannot play any quieter, you should pull the instruments out of the PA. The problem here is the amps need to be positioned so they spread the sound more effectively to the audience for this to work. Basically you need to make a judgment call before the gig on how the amps will be used and whether the instruments will be mixed in the PA or not. I usually run a full band mix in the PA except on the most intimate gigs.
If you have personnel who are willing and capable of playing at low volume, I recommend that you continue running everything through the PA. Most of the bands I have worked with used drum shields and often the drummers used blast sticks or even brushes.
In the lat 90s I ran a country band for few years and I was pretty adamant about keeping the volume down. When we were in small, intimate spaces, we used Galaxy Hotspots to cross feed guitar and keys across the stage. The guitarist and keyboardist shared a mix and each had a Hotspot with a volume control. The guitarist monitored off his amp and the keys were turned up enough in the Hotspots so he could hear it. Likewise the keyboard player monitored off his amp, and the guitar was turned up enough in the Hotspots so he could hear it. Neither guitar or keyboardist could hear their own instrument clearly in their Hotspot.
The vocalist and I shared a mix and a pair of JBL 4602s center stage. Neither the Hotspots nor the 4602s put out any significant bass. The bass amp I used at the time also had a very lean low end. I biamp a GK 800RB into a Bag End S15 and Ramsa WSA200 stacked on top of a rolling rack. This is basically where I started to figure out how important it is to control how much low end the band pushes on stage. Despite using crappy and antiquated gear we never had any trouble with low end mud on stage fighting with our monitor mixes or the subs. It was always very easy to hear our vocals on stage, and our house mix was also clear and it was possible to keep the volume at a very low level in most rooms.
Another possible solution is to put everyone in IEMs and get rid of the amps. I put together an ampless system the used eletronics drums in the mid 90s. At the time, we normally played jazz trio for dinner music. With the IEM system our customers started asking us to play our regular pop repertoire for dinner music because we could turn the volume down as low as we wanted.
I won't say that IEMs and electronic drums are the perfect solution. You can do some cool stuff with electronic drums, but you loose a lot of the touch that a player has with real drums. An ampless system can also be packaged to be super light and go up really fast. The system I spec'ed weighed less than 1,000lbs including instruments, and there was a few times that we setup and were ready to play in 15-20 minutes. The only complaint we got was it sounded too much like a CD, rather than live music.
For context...our prior system weighed over 3,500lbs and we set aside over 2 hours for setup and soundcheck.
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I get what your saying, but IMHO, the band provides a service to the venue manager, so the venue manager's problem is the band's problem.
i would start by re-aiming the PA and amps ... maybe have sounds crossing at a point on the mid - dance floor ..??
versus aiming for the whole room type coverage ...
or get the manager some ear plugs .!?
versus aiming for the whole room type coverage ...
or get the manager some ear plugs .!?
This seems like a sensible solution. But in truth it's an artistic choice, as I am sure you could play quieter, even though you wouldn't like it. If the money was good, I would play quieter.
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Yes, respectfully disagree. I won't argue that it does not sound and feel good to hit the drums hard, but I do think hitting the drums hard makes them loud! ...and this sort of playing is totally inappropriate for dinner music or cocktails. It's also totally unnecessary.
It takes skill, finesse, and lot's of practice for a drummer to develop the necessary control to play at low volume. Then they need to select the right equipment and heads, and tune the drums so they sound good with a light touch. Any drummer that tells you it can't be done is just making excuses.
One of my drummers kept putting me off with the excuse that it is impossible to play quietly with control and finesse. He was a recent University of Miami graduate and I already knew better because I had been a touring pro for about 7 years and had worked with plenty of drummers who could do it, including the drummer he replaced. One night after our gig, I went to our hotel bar and there was an incredible drummer playing supper fast, technical stuff so quiet you could talk over it...and it sounded great. I ran upstairs and offered to buy my drummer a beer. He started working on finesse shortly after the conversation we had that night, and you know what, he got a lot better.
a bass compressor (pedal) can help provide more bass presence at lower volumes
my choice comes in under $200
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BassComp--mxr-m87-bass-compressor-pedal
my choice comes in under $200
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BassComp--mxr-m87-bass-compressor-pedal
Eliminate the conflicts among the vocals and instrumentation but everybody has to be on the same page on this one. "Notch" the various EQ's so the sonic footprints complement one another. I'm not very good at this but I'm sure others will chime-in on the best methodology to pull this off.
Riis
Riis
I mostly play small rooms with mainly vocals in the pa. I usually like to put the pa speakers on the floor to defuse the direct sound a bit. I will angle one or both sideways so the band can hear the level We all use pretty small amps and I will frequently run them through the pa for just a bleed, level not more than the amp itself. This opens up the sound quite a bit without overloading the volume. It also makes adjusting the level up as the night goes on easy. We really never do the drums. As the night goes on , if thing heat up, he hits harder anyway.
It's up to you and the venue really. You either keep your stage volume down and have everything on the PA+monitors, or you crank up your amps and have the pa handle the vox only. I prefer to have the amps turned up just enough so they act like stage monitors. That way you can mic them and send it to the PA and the sound would be more uniform. But if it's a small place, the amps might be enough loud that vox only through PA is just fine.
If the bartenders can hear to make drinks, you are not too loud, unless it is an intimate dining place , then you are not the right band for that place. Maybe use a soundperson for the remaining 4 gigs (One that can mix softer)
Depending on where the waitress stations are at the bar, I don't aim anything there if I can help it...
Thank you for recommendation I will check it out. We do ring out the rooms and save the setting for the next time we play there.
If you rehearse at lower volumes, this trouble may soon disappear.
In this situation the bar was shaped like and "L" with the stage at the top of the L and the bar around a corner along the bottom of the L so they were not even in the direct fire. I think maybe we should have took more notice when the manager asked us to keep turning down when also said "don't feel bad I have to do this with every band that comes in here" that this is place were bands are background music only and should be no higher than a jukebox. We just need to figure out how to make ourselves sound full, being vocals and kick only in the PA etc.
I'm cool with the idea that we work for the bar and if they wanted us to sing with no instruments at all, they are the ones paying us. I do wonder though how much they would have made on that night since 99% of the patrons were our fans that don't normally visit that establishment. Either way that evening we were there to support the bar.
It could be it is just this venue but I want to support 100% whoever is paying us. I know someone else earlier mentioned musicianship and I do not take offense to that comment as I would agree that they can make a difference on how someone perceives us however we have been and are booked all year long and play many festivals through out the year so I feel if we sucked we would be asked back.
I did say 'good' drummer. Also, playing style is always genre appropriate. Cocktail music does NOT sound better with a heavy hitter. Led Zep covers do. The original post was about a rock band hitting 105db peaks, so I assumed they were not playing Girl From Ipanema.
