Help. Having trouble keeping up with my band.

[Thunderthumbs73]

I'm thinking size of the room, volume of said drummer, two guitarists and your current gear. It seems almost impossible, IMO, to get the sound you want with those constraints. It's like saying you want a tight dub-reggae bass sound in an airplane hangar.

New gear or almost any gear I can think of is not going to solve this issue or your quandry. Keep in mind this IS practice, and isn't the show. Your "tone" IS going to get swallowed up, and really the best thing you can do, cheapest, and simplest is to briefly (for the length of the practices) suspend your pursuit of the ideal tone, and set your knobs and eq to cut through, even if it sounds metallic and clicky- knowing that during the show, you'll be able to set the tones as you want, and get them. THAT is where the tone really counts. Remind your bandmates of this too.

I hate to be snippy here, but if you can't cut through with a 4*10 combined with a 15 cab, things ARE way too loud, and your room simply cannot handle that level of volume without turning into utter mud and muck for the low end, and probably for everything else too. The whole group needs to either play a lot quieter, or else get a bigger room. I think you could have two SVT stacks (or pick your loudest amp) and it will neither sound CLEARER or BETTER. It will only be louder.

Please realize that there are a lot of cool, great options available to us bassists, but changing the laws of physics and proximity effects of so many loud things all going on at the same time, unfortunately is not yet one of them.

Best to you.

 

[Sir Edward V]

duuuude, too much volume.

I know the feeling of playing really loud feels good. But I have a 200W 1x15 cab and I never need to push it past 4-5 (out of 10) to cut through. And this with a really effing loud drummer and guitarist.

You and your band need to sit down, awknowledge that there is a problem, and set out to fix it before you all go deaf or something. Your tone probably isn't the problem here, if you have done everything you can think of with your equipment to be heard, then you need to go and move the knobs on the guitar players' amps. they both probably have to turn down some and change their EQ settings. Their bass knobs need to be turned down most likely. either way, they need to back up on some of the sonic spectrum so you can find a niche'

Buying new gear for this purpose is completely unnecessary, and will most likely only add to the problem.

 

[Gearhead17]

There are a lot of valid points stated in this thread, but honestly, that Ampeg B2R is a hunk of underpowered junk. I should know, I had one.

I know you are looking at the Fletcher Munson curve and how the ear percevies sound - I would ignore that for right now. I play a 5 string and I will tell you that pushing 30hz to audible levels for band practice is completely useless. It does not add anything cool to the band sound, makes everything you play muddy as hell, and does not equal a better perceived tone. Focus on cabs that do well at 40hz and up - anything lower than 40hz is better reproduced by a large PA system anyway. I learned this the hard way and now I am selling a powered 18" cab I got. Live, getting a cool 30 hz tone on stage does not help my band members one bit in hearing me.

A small room for practicing - some of those rooms can make an Ampeg 810e sound like garbage and make those cabs incredibly quiet. The acoustic response of the room is most likely not favorable to you, so don't focus on a ton of low end. The B2R does not have a great midrange tone to it (600hz - 900hz) - it's awfully metallic sounding, but for right now it may be the only way to hear yourself.

I bet aything the low tunings you are pushing through the B2R are eating up every ounce of power that thing has and therefore you really can't go any further with volume. The guitarists are probably crushing enough low end into the room with their low tunings, so you are really fighting a losing battle with getting your low end to be loud. Just remember that most of those guitar speakers don't go lower than 80 hz with much acoustical energy. So you can push 40hz at 95db and still hear it because the guitars are not that far down.

I would not suggest the Ampeg PR-410hlf, it's an inefficient cab to say the least and all the extra low end will not help you much. I use the Eden 410XLT - not a ton of low end, but it projects tone crazily and is quite loud when matched with nearly any head. I use two 410xlt's and a Mesa 400+ for practice and live shows and I have actually had to turn down my rig lately! Never had to do that before! Good Luck

 

[Bass_Pounder]

In most live situations Ive seen is that a 8x10 per guitar player 4x12 is a nice equal balance. Unless its a really ballsy 810 like the hpc or basson then you can get away with a 810 per guitar stack.

This is my favorite line...............

One 8X10 for every guitarists 4X12

Where have you ever seen that ?

 

[Bardley]

In most live situations Ive seen is that a 8x10 per guitar player 4x12 is a nice equal balance. Unless its a really ballsy 810 like the hpc or basson then you can get away with a 810 per guitar stack.

Actually, If it's a large live concert, most of the cabs on stage are usually dummy cabs with only one or two hooked up. These huge walls of Ampeg 8x10s and Marshall 4x12s are many times not even loaded with drivers. What you hear is coming from the PA. Anything more than one or two of these cabs is too much stage volume to get a proper mix in the house.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Everyone has a volume pedal: guitarists, bassists, keyboardists, and yes, even drummers. (think: lighter sticks, lightning rods and brushes, and more importantly a thing called stick height.) Drummers can play quieter. Many can play a LOT quieter. I know- I play drums in a townhouse with nary a complaint. Start at the drums. Then go to the guitar section, and get those volumes down. Also, cut back the lows on the guitar amps.

Then your amp, underpowered as it may or may not be (even if it's stated at 350watts as the B2R is stated) along with your bass stack speaker setup will sound much better than it did.

And you might save a little hearing too, in the process.

Please, please consider earplugs, if you don't already use them.

 

[sickwindsor]

Here is my Rig. My eq on my bass is set flat and the ampeg eq is set
bass 5
mids 8
treble 4
gain 6
volume 6

Also note worthy is I have played 140dB bass rigs. I was a guitar tech for Drowning Pool at one time and this is Stevie's Rig. Ampeg svt3's for preamps and three Crown Macrotech 2400s powering three basson 810s. I will post pic's as an example but the point I am trying to make is that I am looking for a loud rig. I am planing on building something similar but smaller and more manageable. I just needed some options for cabinets that take can take the low end and push a lot of air.I do wear ear protection and we are happy with the levels we play at. I am just looking to get better tone louder with a balanced rig. Thanks

 

[thesteve]

Have you considered going old school and trying out an Acoustic 360/361 setup? I've always heard those folded horn 18s bring the bottom end like nothing else on the market.

 

[Bardley]

Also note worthy is I have played 140dB bass rigs. I was a guitar tech for Drowning Pool at one time and this is Stevie's Rig. Ampeg svt3's for preamps and three Crown Macrotech 2400s powering three basson 810s. I will post pic's as an example but the point I am trying to make is that I am looking for a loud rig. I am planing on building something similar but smaller and more manageable. I just needed some options for cabinets that take can take the low end and push a lot of air.I do wear ear protection and we are happy with the levels we play at. I am just looking to get better tone louder with a balanced rig. Thanks

In that case, you need more headroom than your 350 watt amp. Your cabs are not all that bad. You just need the headroom and wattage to produce that power. You do realize that those crowns on his rig can push 1650 watts each bridged @ 8ohms? 350 watts cannot come close to moving that kind of air. I would shoot for 900 - 1000 watts minimum to come close the the headroom you would need.

 

[four2oh]

The other trick is to set up your amps across from you. Crowding around an amp thats pumping out low Cs you wont be able to hear anything.. So set up each amp at least 5-10 feet in FRONT of the person playing through it. You'll find you don't need that much power. at least not for practice

Make sure those geetards are facing their cabinets from 5-10 feet away.. overall sound levels in the room will drop once they can actually hear themselves via their ears rather than their butt.

 

[bkbirge]

You guys are too f'in loud...

Sound dB-SPL
Jet engine at 3m 140
Threshold of pain 130
Rock concert 120
Accelerating motorcycle at 5m 110
Pneumatic hammer at 2m 100
Noisy factory 90
Vacuum cleaner 80
Busy traffic 70
Quiet restaurant 50
Residential area at night 40
Empty movie house 30
Rustling of leaves 20
Human breathing (at 3m) 10
Threshold of hearing (good ears) 0

 

[sickwindsor]

In that case, you need more headroom than your 350 watt amp. Your cabs are not all that bad. You just need the headroom and wattage to produce that power. You do realize that those crowns on his rig can push 1650 watts each bridged @ 8ohms? 350 watts cannot come close to moving that kind of air. I would shoot for 900 - 1000 watts minimum to come close the the headroom you would need.

Closer to 2000watts @ 4ohms. I am for sure getting a different head.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Here is my Rig. My eq on my bass is set flat and the ampeg eq is set
bass 5
mids 8
treble 4
gain 6
volume 6

Also note worthy is I have played 140dB bass rigs. I was a guitar tech for Drowning Pool at one time and this is Stevie's Rig. Ampeg svt3's for preamps and three Crown Macrotech 2400s powering three basson 810s. I will post pic's as an example but the point I am trying to make is that I am looking for a loud rig. I am planing on building something similar but smaller and more manageable. I just needed some options for cabinets that take can take the low end and push a lot of air.I do wear ear protection and we are happy with the levels we play at. I am just looking to get better tone louder with a balanced rig. Thanks

Holy cow, man. That Basson setup is like taking the main bass rig from Bonaroo and moving it inside to play a club! Christ. With all due respect, it does make me wonder what a PA is for, if everyone is coming to the table with this kind of sonic firepower???? At some point, no matter how much air needs to be moved, isn't that the point of the PA? At some point, isn't the PA for sound REINFORCEMENT?

Every PA I've used in events and at my very biggest gigs could easily make the audience deaf or uncomfortable in short order, no matter what amp, cabs or wattage I had onstage.

On one of the gigs I was flow out to, they had the backline with an SVT stack with 8*10 cab setup for me, and this was an indoor gig, AND with big PA ready to go. I'm thinking: are you folks nuts? D/I/mic a 4*10 and 400Watt amp of any kind, with the right PA would have been perfect, and perhaps even too much, even then.

And I play rock and roll too.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I don't get it. But I'm trying to.

Best to you.

 

[sickwindsor]

You guys are too f'in loud...

Sound dB-SPL
Jet engine at 3m 140
Threshold of pain 130
Rock concert 120
Accelerating motorcycle at 5m 110
Pneumatic hammer at 2m 100
Noisy factory 90
Vacuum cleaner 80
Busy traffic 70
Quiet restaurant 50
Residential area at night 40
Empty movie house 30
Rustling of leaves 20
Human breathing (at 3m) 10
Threshold of hearing (good ears) 0

Those numbers are misleading. 140db at 1khz would make you cry however @ 50 its just some good chest thump. Most concerts Ive got to around 135-140 depending on the freq.

 

[sickwindsor]

Holy cow, man. That Basson setup is like taking the main bass rig from Bonaroo and moving it inside to play a club! Christ. With all due respect, it does make me wonder what a PA is for, if everyone is coming to the table with this kind of sonic firepower???? At some point, no matter how much air needs to be moved, isn't that the point of the PA? At some point, isn't the PA for sound REINFORCEMENT?

Every PA I've used in events and at my very biggest gigs could easily make the audience deaf or uncomfortable in short order, no matter what amp, cabs or wattage I had onstage.

On one of the gigs I was flow out to, they had the backline with an SVT stack with 8*10 cab setup for me, and this was an indoor gig, AND with big PA ready to go. I'm thinking: are you folks nuts? D/I/mic a 4*10 and 400Watt amp of any kind, with the right PA would have been perfect, and perhaps even too much, even then.

And I play rock and roll too.

Maybe it's me. Maybe I don't get it. But I'm trying to.

Best to you.

Well at practice only the vox goes thru the PA. Live is not a problem. We do have an option of buying a bigger pa to fill out some of the low end however I would rather it come direct from my rig just to have headroom on my terms not the sound guy.

 

[spectorbass83]

Usually a rig like that should get you by in most situations.
If anything, I would replace the Ampeg head you have. It's pretty conservative and doesn't have much headroom.
Also, the B series Ampeg cabs are probably not the most efficient. But I really doubt that's where the problem is. I mean, sensitivity and efficiency aside, you're still pushing a lot of air with a 4x10+15

Get a head with a lot more power, thats my suggestion.

 

[pedro]

Dang I'm old I once thought Blue Cheer was loud.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Well at practice only the vox goes thru the PA. Live is not a problem. We do have an option of buying a bigger pa to fill out some of the low end however I would rather it come direct from my rig just to have headroom on my terms not the sound guy.

Cool, thanks for not yelling at me for my "suggestions." Re: low end- you can buy a bigger amp and cab and all that. And you'll have to carry it. Or let the soundguy buy it and/or carry the bigger PA stuff and then it's HIS job. Guess which one I vote for?



Plus it's cool to be on good terms, with a soundguy- it gives you practice in trying to get someone else to get "your" sound. This is helpful when you cannot use your own system, stage, setup or sound, (like certain gigs, tours, etc...). It allows you to not be so tied to your own specific gear so you know how to negotiate/listen/talk/deal with different gear, soundguys, places, setups and a whole bunch of things beyond your control. This will be of tremendous benefit as you move onward and upward in music.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Dang I'm old I once thought Blue Cheer was loud.

I thought it was laundry detergent. Wait! Isn't it?

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Those numbers are misleading. 140db at 1khz would make you cry however @ 50 its just some good chest thump. Most concerts Ive got to around 135-140 depending on the freq.

Those numbers ARE misleading: you can also easily become deaf or have major tinnitus even at 90 db of prolonged exposure at a noisy factory!!!!!! No need to take it to 140 db to get that effect!!!!!

If it weren't so sadly true, I might have seemed like I was just making a play on words for a laugh or two...