Help me with my first pa

[svlilioukalani]

Less gear is more when your mixing from the stage. If you must spend more money buy some stage lights. Most of the people at my gigs hear with their eyes anyway.

 

[Slevage]

I should add we are going to run the sound from on stage, We have wireless and we can step out front to hear what's happening

I did that in the late 80's, early 90's and it was OK, but not as good as a sound tech. I wish those new mixers with iPad front ends were around back then. I've seen some going used for 1/2 of the new price (just something to think about).

But I do agree--- leave the subs home for small rooms, and bring one sub for medium rooms (and/or locate the 2 subs to the middle of
your FOH setup).

 

[Zooberwerx]

I would always to stick at least one sub into the mix...too easy to lose the kick presence even in the smallest venues. Spatial constraints / limited "real estate" may make this difficult, though. Do your subs have pole receivers on top? If so, stick one either to the left or right, add a pole, and stick your main on top. On the opposite side, use a conventional tripod.

Riis

 

[JimiLL]

Yes we plan using either one our two subs depending on venue. We have decided to get regular passive mains and another power amp, probably a 1500 Watter.

We have decided not to have any compression, except what's coming from my bass rig. Guitar guy insists on the gates; ill let him have it. We do need vocal processor, dry vocals suck.

I must add none of us are rookies, we have probably 100 years experience playing live between all of us. It's just someone else always had the pa or sound was run by the venue

 

[Zooberwerx]

Yes we plan using either one our two subs depending on venue. We have decided to get regular passive mains and another power amp, probably a 1500 Watter.

We have decided not to have any compression, except what's coming from my bass rig. Guitar guy insists on the gates; ill let him have it. We do need vocal processor, dry vocals suck.

I must add none of us are rookies, we have probably 100 years experience playing live between all of us. It's just someone else always had the pa or sound was run by the venue

Couple of great used amp deals here in the classifieds. If you're serious about an FX engine, PM me. Check Bongo's site Compressor Reviews for suggestions re: compressors, gates, etc. You can pick up a dual channel rackmount for cheap and assign one to gating duty while using the second for vocals comp on a sub-group...if available.

Riis

 

[klokker]

Ok so I'm chipping in to help build my cover bands pa. So far we have two 118 peavey black window cabs, and a carvin dcm 2000 feeding them. Two powered Mackie mains, a 20 channel board, 31 band eq. What else should go in there to do small/medium venue gigs? Vocal effects are in planning the stages.

Also, the other guy I'm splitting stuff with seems to think we need 7 channels of compression. ... 4 on drums, 3 on vocals, all gated. I was thinking just kick and snare would suffice. What do you all think?

I'm with a lot of people on this thread. Assuming your cover band approximates mine in terms of what works in the real world, a "keep it simple" approach is the best approach. For small medium bars, we put vocals and some kick drum into the PA, and instruments (guitar, keyboard, bass) are on their own. We can usually set our sound in about 15 minutes after it's up and running which isn't a bad set up. No compression, gates, or whatever.

The bars we play in rarely have a sound person. When there is one, the house has their own PA and we can leave ours at home obviously. The skills and expertise required at that point revolve much more around political persuasion than having the right gear.

 

[JimiLL]

My guitar player insists on everything running though the pa. Says it will sound like poopie otherwise. I disagree.

 

[Zooberwerx]

My guitar player insists on everything running though the pa. Says it will sound like **** otherwise. I disagree.

There's a modicum of truth to that but it's accompanied by other stringent conditions including the soundguy's control of the backline volume & balance.

Riis

 

[bebass]

Did someone just discover compression? This is the second thread in as many days.

In 40 years playing live I've rarely said, gosh, if we only had compression

There are some styles where it's sort of integral to the sound - re hardcore dub

But, other than that meh

I think there is a tendency to over use compression.

OP: Consider selling your board and going the digital route. I would also get rid of the amps and subs. I see everything going active and it INTENSELY simplifies. Say for instance a X18 mixer (x32 if this is not enough inputs), use your existing powered mains, and get a single LS801P powered sub. Then you have everything your guitar player wants plus what you want and you guys can play around with it until you get exactly the sound you want. Hookup is simplified. Personally I would mic everything but it does require an adjustment of stage volume of personal amps - which for some reason guitar players notoriously abuse. You can take an Android device out into the room and adjust levels. win/win/win situation over amps/outboard processors/non-optimized speakers/main board having to be out in audience otherwise you have to run back and forth, etc

 

[Jools4001]

I think there is a tendency to over use compression.

OP: Consider selling your board and going the digital route. I would also get rid of the amps and subs. I see everything going active and it INTENSELY simplifies. Say for instance a X18 mixer (x32 if this is not enough inputs), use your existing powered mains, and get a single LS801P powered sub. Then you have everything your guitar player wants plus what you want and you guys can play around with it until you get exactly the sound you want. Hookup is simplified. Personally I would mic everything but it does require an adjustment of stage volume of personal amps - which for some reason guitar players notoriously abuse. You can take an Android device out into the room and adjust levels. win/win/win situation over amps/outboard processors/non-optimized speakers/main board having to be out in audience otherwise you have to run back and forth, etc

I have done this with my X32 Rack. It sits in the same 6U rack as the FOH and monitor poweramps. This gives me a system that is nearly as easy to set up as a mixer amp, but has every possible feature you could wish for in terms of EQ, FX, Dynamic Processing on every input channel and fully featured EQ on every output as well. It is almost certainly overkill for the covers band I play in and the sort of venues we do, but it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. It also enables me to do the soundcheck from the audience, and to save EQ presets for regular venues. It's a very cool thing.

What I would say though is that mixing on an iPad, a laptop or an Android device as the user interface is fine for me but others may prefer physical knobs and sliders. The X32 user interface is also quite logical and very flexible when you get used to it, but it can be a steep learning curve and the features that make it compelling can also make it somewhat overwhelming. I think I would find it quite daunting unless I had cut my teeth on analogue stuff, so probably not an ideal choice for an absolute first PA. The UI on the X18 Air, however, looks very user friendly, but I still think that something like an analogue desk from Mackie, A&H, Soundcraft or any similar manufacturer would be better for a first timer...even if only to learn what everything does and how to route it in a physical domain.

 

[JimiLL]

Digital is nice, but way out there as far as costs go

 

[bebass]

Digital is nice, but way out there as far as costs go

I disagree - price an x18. Now price a good quality conventional board like a 16 channel A&H AND processors AND crossover AND 31 band EQ AND RTA. Which is cheaper?

 

[bebass]

I have done this with my X32 Rack. It sits in the same 6U rack as the FOH and monitor poweramps. This gives me a system that is nearly as easy to set up as a mixer amp, but has every possible feature you could wish for in terms of EQ, FX, Dynamic Processing on every input channel and fully featured EQ on every output as well. It is almost certainly overkill for the covers band I play in and the sort of venues we do, but it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. It also enables me to do the soundcheck from the audience, and to save EQ presets for regular venues. It's a very cool thing.

What I would say though is that mixing on an iPad, a laptop or an Android device as the user interface is fine for me but others may prefer physical knobs and sliders. The X32 user interface is also quite logical and very flexible when you get used to it, but it can be a steep learning curve and the features that make it compelling can also make it somewhat overwhelming. I think I would find it quite daunting unless I had cut my teeth on analogue stuff, so probably not an ideal choice for an absolute first PA. The UI on the X18 Air, however, looks very user friendly, but I still think that something like an analogue desk from Mackie, A&H, Soundcraft or any similar manufacturer would be better for a first timer...even if only to learn what everything does and how to route it in a physical domain.

A good point that I somewhat agree with...

I think it depends on which generation one is from. For us old farts like me who grew up with sound systems before digital was a thing, it is more difficult to make the switch. If I hadn't been a computer nerd, with a degree in EE, I probably wouldn't be interested in a digital board.
But take today's generation, who grew up with an ipad or Android device, where a digital device is just another device - I think they are more likely to just plug it in, spend an afternoon learning it, and just go. I do agree that some fundamental sound system knowledge is required, but it is fairly straightforward.

And the benefit outweighs the hassle IMO. Costs less than a full rack with outboard processing, reduces load-in and setup time, especially if one plays the same venue. All that is needed is the powered speakers, the digital board, an Android device & cabling. Just a helluva lot easier than all the amps and processing equipment, IMO. And I think that the one active sub I suggested, the Ls801P, will put out as much or more than the 2 Peaveys with the amps - making it much simpler. Even if he keeps his existing subs the X18 will probably more than meet his needs.

 

[JimiLL]

I disagree - price an x18. Now price a good quality conventional board like a 16 channel A&H AND processors AND crossover AND 31 band EQ AND RTA. Which is cheaper?

Were buying used stuff. so far we have about $1200 in all we need is mains now

 

[morgansterne]

My only comment on the whole "running everything through the PA" debate is that its good to run the guitar amp through the PA if it gets your guitarist to turn his amp down. It's not necessary for volume purposes, but people sitting right in front of the guitar amp might appreciate the sound being spread out instead of 100% of it aimed straight at their head.
As far as drums go, I love putting a mic on the kick. It tends to change the sound in a nice way. We just started mic'ing the snare because out new drummer plays so quietly.
my 2 cents, tom mics are not crucial, and don't use 'overhead' mics. You'll never hear the audience at a bar gig telling you the crash cymbals need to be louder!