Help/suggestions in wiring a 3rd pup into a project.

[gfen]

The TL;DR version: As part of a project, I'm adding a third pickup to a bass. I'd like advise on how you might wire this.

I've got a 32" SX. It started life as a jazz copy.
Then I removed the middle pup and stuck in a Fender Fidelitron from a Cabronita. So, now it's a P/J.
It's passive, and it's wired VVT, as it was stock.

I had an Epi EB0 and I thought it sounded great, and since I need something to amuse me, I bought an Artec mudbucker copy from Ebay. Now I want to stick this in right up in the neck spot to ape the EB0 as best it can (I know it's not the same thing).

So, the question is what's the best way to wire this up?

I'm not heavily interested in things like complicated switching arrays, or coil tapping, phase switches, etc. I also don't have alot of room, since it's a medium scale SX, the whole thing is scaled down to like 7/8 size. I suspect this means I'm going to need to route space under the guard to do much of anything, and I'm OK with that, but would really like to minimize it.

So, since the next step is to purchase components, I need to figure out how I want to do this.

Originally, I thought I'd use a 5 way strat switch for: Bridge, B/Middle, M, B/Neck, Neck. I figured a single volume and a single tone and I'd be happy enough, meaning I'd just need to figure out if I could remove the second volume and turn it into a switch (likely rotary).

Unfortuantly, I've recently discovered a great sound with slightly different volumes of the current pups, and I think I want to preserve that, and other, options. I've also discovered that it's evidently not as easy as drop-it-in and go. There's lots of fancy words and things I don't really understand without any first hand knowledge of it involving the (evidently) severely mismatched impedences of what I'm doing here.

So, would it make more sense to do V/V/V/T?
Remove the tone pot (I'm not adverse to this, I can't think of the last time I turned that down), or perhaps using a miniswitch with different caps?
Something with individual switches for pickups and/or a blend pot?
An unheard of option I don't know because I'm way out of my element?
Deal with a 5 way switch and lose indvidual volumes?

The key is I hope that anyone willing to lend knowledge understands is I want to work in the confines of simplicity and mimimalism for both space and cost but also just to keep it reasonable as a learning project.

Thanks for reading all that, more thanks if you weighed in with something useful.

 

[JustForSport]

That short jazz control plate is a bit confining for what I think you want, but you could move the jack to the side of the body for more possibilities with the plate.

I like a 5-way Strat switch to be able to keep the pickups separate.

Re: "I've recently discovered a great sound with slightly different volumes of the current pups, and I think I want to preserve that, and other, options. "
A 5-way with 2 vol pots (stacked if you need the plate space) will allow you to retain this, wired correctly (wiring the vol pots before the switch).

You should still have room for a "miniswitch with different caps".

That would give you a 5-way, 1 stacked vol/vol, and a switch on the plate.

 

[40Hz]

I've found mixing humbuckers with single coils on the same passive bass doesn't usually work out that well unless you very carefully select and match all the components in the circuit.

I'd be very interested in hearing how this project works out.

Luck.

 

[gfen]

I reached out to a member who's got a few 3 pup basses with the EB0 style mudbuckers up front, and he wrote me back with:

I would wire the far neck and the middle together to and use a 3 way mini toggle to chose one, the other or both.

The VVVT idea is good for balancing the three different types of pickups, but for me it becomes cumbersome. I prefer on volume and a blend control or two volumes.

All of my triples are wired similar with the neck and middle together on one side of a blender (or one of two volumes). This is because I usually pair a bridge pickup with a neck or middle but not both. Blending between the two neck pickups is something I don't have much need for personally.
​

Sounds like if I use a toggle for N/M to volume 1, then B to volume 2, out to tone then output jack might be the easiest way to pull this off. Matter of fact, all I really need is a minitoggle to flip between N&M on my current wiring.

A blend might be preferable, but given the space I've got to work in and the fact that this is the first time I'm going into something like this, that might be easiest. I can also follow established wiring diagrams to piece this together.

I never thought, on the other hand, of using stacked pots to provide V/V/V/T. The downside to that is increased complexity, and my lack of knowledge (at this point) if I have room for those full sized stack pots under the smaller control plate on my med scale/downsized body cavity.

 

[JustForSport]

Mini Stacked pots don't take up much space. With one of those and a mini switch for multi caps (or tone pot), it would leave plenty space for a 5-way, and a stacked vol/vol pot will give you a master vol along with a vol wired to whichever pickup you chose to blend in.

The above reply looks like pretty near the same options and like you say, it'll be simple to integrate.

Certainly, there's more than one way to do it.

 

[gfen]

Certainly, there's more than one way to do it.

No argument there. If this turns out as interesting as I like to hope, I'd consider moving this to a full size partscaster.

Now, I just need to learn how to operate the router I borrowed from a deceased uncle's abadonded workshop. Oh, am I ever gonna make a mess out of this thing.

 

[40Hz]

Oh, am I ever gonna make a mess out of this thing.

Awesome! Have fun.

Just get some instruction on using that router. Routers can inflict some pretty serious hurt if not used properly. And not just to the workpiece. There's books and YouTube videos. Don't try to do it purely by trial an error. Get some education.

Luck! And keep us posted.

 

[JustForSport]

+++++++ ^^^

Yes, as commented above- read up on router operation from several sources.

A few points, in no particular order, and certainly not comprehensive:

Use good, full coverage poly safety glasses, plus earplugs and good dust mask if you don't have dust collection on the table.
Use a sharp bit. Accidents and over-cuts are more likely to happen if having to force the bit to cut.
Use guides/ templates for control- visibility can be bad. It can be near impossible to follow a line with the bit by sight.
Keep a good, firm grip with both hands when starting the bit and until it comes fully to a stop.
Make shallow passes and route out progressive levels rather than trying to get it all at once.
It's good to use a Forstner bit to hog out the biggest part of the hole, then use the router to trim to the edges and the final depth.
Respect that tool.

If routing in a finished surface, scribe a cut around the perimeter of the hole to help prevent chipping of the finish at the edge.
Use a couple layers of masking tape on the surface to protect it from the router's base plate.

Yeah, keep us posted as to the process and also what you end up doing with the wiring/pots, and why.
Have fun!

 

[gfen]

Safety? Pah, I'm a man with four fingers on each hand (and that doesn't count my thumb), I can afford to lose one.

Seriously, though, the more I read up on this old thing the more I understand I'm missing the crucial part of the kit, the template bushings. I just sort of assumed the bearing on the template bit pressed against the template, never occured to me there was another piece in the middle to lock it in but I guess that makes perfect sense. Since I think this router dates to about 1980 I'm pretty much SOL on finding them down at the ole Sears anymore. To say nothing of the manual recommending 1/8" of an inch passes!

So, I guess it's wood chisels, instead.

From my reading, I'm not supposed to use a forstner bit in a hand drill, and that's all I've got. Maybe if I just buy a small one, like 1/2", and start pilot holes via a regular bit and then go in with a forstner, I can clean it out with a simple chisel and some sanding discs on my Dremel when done.

 

[David Jayne]

The five way switch is the way to go. Three volumes won't be useful and will load the circuit down in ways that I don't think you'll like. There's a reason you don't see it. You won't be able to 'mix' these pickups in a useful way with a passive circuit.

 

[gfen]

The five way switch is the way to go. Three volumes won't be useful and will load the circuit down in ways that I don't think you'll like. There's a reason you don't see it. You won't be able to 'mix' these pickups in a useful way with a passive circuit.

Doesn't look like there's much room in there, at all. No, I didn't actually plan anything, it's all spur of the moment nonsense up in here. But I don't think I've got room for a 5 way even if I wanted it, and I was most interested in having the jazz and the mudbucker to mix, keeping the Fidelitron in the middle is just having my cake. Being able to bring that on in lieu of the mudbucker is fine.

Poking through my junk drawer, I found a SPDT (on/on) switch which conviently happens to be the size of a tiny six sided die (that's 1d6 for my fellow nerds), so figured I'd see just how much space I've got in there:

No, sir, not alot. The only way I can squeeze it in is if I mount it sideways and snug it in between a pair of pots at an angle. So, either I stick it into the scratch guard, or I get one shot at lining up a perfect hole into the control plate and jam it all in there very snugly. See how I italicized that? Really want to emphasize that snugness. I suspect that DPDT on/on/on isn't going to fit, either.

So, two way switch to V1 and jazz to V2 is the way.

 

[JustForSport]

A stacked vol/vol pot buys you space. A side-mounted jack (and a blank jazz plate) makes room for lots of options (altho the cavity is very shallow as-is).

 

[gfen]

A stacked vol/vol pot buys you space. A side-mounted jack (and a blank jazz plate) makes room for lots of options (altho the cavity is very shallow as-is).

I'd have to fabricate my own plate, which wouldn't be that much of a problem... I did it with the pickguard out of 16g steel. Of course, I didn't quite get all the holes lined up for the screws. Anyways, there someone goes again (in the same thread) pointing out the utility of stacked pots when I overlooked them.

I can also likely sand out the edges of the wiring area a bit, get myself a millimeter or so on both sides without too much effort, I think. Since at this point, I've got to clip both pups and remove them before I start to hammer at the bass to chisel out the new cavity (when I was routing it, I assumed if I just covered it to keep the dust off it wouldn't be an issue; if I'm going to constantly tapping it with a hammer to remove wood, I probably shouldn't leave the pups in to suffer the potential for stress).

I took a depth measurement last night, wish I could remember what it was. I do remember that I had less than a centimeter of space between the required bottom of the pup route and the back of the bass, though. I have visions of the guide holes in whatever bit I use to hog out the cavity punching through the back of the bass.

 

[JustForSport]

get all the holes lined up for the screws

Well, now you've got a template (the current plate) to use as a drill guide.

Depth collars can help with pilot holes, and marked tape on the drill shank along with a straightedge across the hole (and against the shank) makes a good guide.

 

[gfen]

Depth collars can help with pilot holes, and marked tape on the drill shank along with a straightedge across the hole (and against the shank) makes a good guide.

Making a depth collar out of a piece of scrape was something learned that after somehow sinking 2.5 hours of time into watching old guys chisel holes on youtube last night. Those guys make it look easy.

I picked up a set of budget chisels today, practiced a bit on an old 2x4 I had around. Used a 1/4" brad bit ("borrowed" from work) to chew out some holes then went in with a chisel. It's not as easy as grizzled furniture guys make it look, but it's certainly doable. Gotta say as ugly as hogging out with the bit looks, it's so much easier than doing without. More worrisome when I assume that the cheap framing 2x4s probably aren't as hard as the guitar's alder body.

Considering adding a Dremel routing bit to my collection, then clearing with the brad bit, chiseling out hunks, and cleaning up the remnants with the router bit. Might be easier than trying to chisel out more hole and then using a dremel sanding disc and regular paper to clean it out.

My other concern is hamfisted chisel action with a 1/4" or so of wood between the neck and new cavities. Seems like a place where I'll just crack the wood right through.

Either way, next step is documenting what's connected in there now and tearing it all out.

 

[gfen]

Think my Artec came pre-broken, as it has more hum than signal. I've read some discussions about that here, and I'll probably followup with the vendor as well as maybe look at the troubleshooting. This isn't about that, though, this is just to finish up this thread:

Never mind my very not square cuts into the pickguard. Eventually I'll either square it up or just cut a hole in the metal one I'd fabricated and used previously.

Step by steps in the spoiler:

Spoiler

Guide lines:

Hogged out with a 1/4" brad bit:

2+ hours of chiseling later, a rough yet sized hole. Holy crap, you really can use chisels!

A Dremel with a 150 grit sanding drum and a 220 sanding disc cleaned up the hole, smoothed out the sides and edges and drop is accomplished!

I didn't take a picture, but I used another, larger, drill bit to open up the lower left corner of the middle cavity into the control cavity, then just used the dremel with the sanding drum to open it up so I had space for the mini-toggle.

Anyways, once I get the pickup to perform correctly, I think I'll be pretty happy.