Double Bass Help with group sharing mic

[bobsax]

We picked up a Ear Trumpet Louise microphone. Did one gig so for . We're still working it out. I needed to use a small amp and the banjo girl says we're drowning her lead vocals out.
Any suggestions on using these microphones?
Louise — Ear Trumpet Labs

 

[JKos]

banjo girl says we're drowning her lead vocals out

To herself or in the output from the mic (the mix)?

If in the mix, then she needs to be closer to the mic. Kinda how it works. Mix is controlled by volume and distance from mic of each element.

Watch videos of seasoned groups and you’ll see folks stepping towards and away from the mic to change the mix.

 

[bobsax]

Exactly .. You need to do the choreography also. This video has some good points and the bass does need to use a separate mic.
Please share any other videos of bands using this approach . There was a good discussion years ago but I can't find it.

 

[Don Hergert]

It also depends on who has their own mic or amp on stage, and who doesn't.

If no one else is separately mic'ed or amp'ed, the key to successfully using a single mic is everyone knowing how to balance themselves properly without a mic first. Choreography around the mic is important, but not as important as everyone in the band knowing how to moderate their volume appropriately for a good acoustic mix.

And yes, this includes the banjo player/vocalist, she may unknowingly be causing her own problem with having her banjo near the same area as her voice is coming from. And I'm speaking as our band's banjo player here, a banjo has an uncanny affinity for a single mic at any distance. Single mic work also may mean isolating that mic by height and angle so the banjo doesn't speak right into it.

Another hint: If you're playing a venue that offers FOH control, let them do it, but have them cut your monitors to almost nothing. They'll always get a better mix than you can while you're trying to perform, but their monitors can confuse your sound more quickly than anything else.

While single mic choreography is fun to watch and traditional, you'll find that the best stage sound teams for bluegrass music prefer to use individual limited-range mics for each instrument and for each voice, and to control them at a mixer.

 

[Abington]

How many people are you playing with?

When I playing in a guitar & fiddle old-time duo the single microphone set-up worked perfectly and got us a more natural sound with negligible choreography. For a bigger string band I've had less success with one mic (mostly regarding feedback in tricky rooms). A less finicky but still "legit" set-up is one central microphone with 2 spot mics off the side for soloists and a mic or pickup on the bass - preferably there isn't a bass amp on stage and, if needed, it is quiet and raised off of the floor. Most any SDC or even 57s work for the spot microphones.

 

[AGCurry]

There are so many factors at work here that no one answer suffices.
Outside or inside?
Size of room?
Size of audience?
How much noise is the audience making?
How many in the ensemble?

In general, a single-mic setup requires:

1. A quiet room and a quiet audience.
2. An acceptance that not every member is going to feel like they're loud enough.
3. A lot of choreography from everybody except maybe the bass.
4. Singers who can sing loudly and know how to project.
5. Players who listen.
6. A mic designed with a wide and deep pickup pattern.

I would take issue with your having an amp for your bass, unless it's not a very good instrument. Once one person amplifies, the race is on.

In my opinion, the best microphone ever made for a group using a single mic is the venerable RCA 44 (or various mics made with that design, like the AEA R44). The "reach" of that mic is incredible. Your "Louise" may be as good... I don't know. But no microphone can make up for a lack of the requirements listed above.

 

[Don Hergert]

Once one person amplifies, the race is on.

^^YES!^^

 

[Ed S]

My opinion is too many groups are overly reliant on amplification. (Depending on the room/ambient noise - of course.) Outside or in a big room, well, that's a different challenge.

I strongly prefer multiple mics, over individual amplification. When we were a 5-piece, we got our best results w/ a 2d condenser mic. One reason we needed it was b/c one of our players played cello. Kinda stretched the range for a single mic.

Yeah, singer needs to get closer, and others need to work on not overplaying the vocals. If you need an amp, you should get a louder bass. It is common to want to feel like you are louder, but I never had a problem being heard unamped in the smaller rooms we played.

I assume you've worked w/ someone whose ear you trust out front?

If no one else is separately mic'ed or amp'ed, the key to successfully using a single mic is everyone knowing how to balance themselves properly without a mic first. Choreography around the mic is important, but not as important as everyone in the band knowing how to moderate their volume appropriately for a good acoustic mix.

.

This! A thousand times, this!

 

[Ryan in PDX]

We picked up a Ear Trumpet Louise microphone. Did one gig so for . We're still working it out. I needed to use a small amp and the banjo girl says we're drowning her lead vocals out.
Any suggestions on using these microphones?
Louise — Ear Trumpet Labs

Are you also rehearsing with this setup? Recording each tune and listening back to make changes after every song? When I tried the one-mic thing with my trio, it was intuitive for two of us, but the third struggled with the concept and did not enjoy the choreography. It's not for everyone.

It may be worth trying the one mic for vocals, with separate inputs for the instruments. It requires less choreography, and the mic could be angled up away from the banjo. Perhaps that would be a good way to ease into the full one mic experience if things aren't coming together yet.

You'll probably want a separate input for the bass, but I'd avoid amps.

 

[Jared Houseman]

Like every else said, it's all about the choreographing.

If you were jamming un-miced you would have to balance the dynamics if each player and the vocals. Standing in front of a mic doesn't change that, especially a mic like the Louise. You'll want to step in and out to "lift" different elements in the mix but it only works if the whole band is dynamic.

I prefer not to use monitors when using a single condenser. Standing near each other and hearing things naturally is the whole appeal of using a single mic for me.

 

[Ed S]

Are you also rehearsing with this setup? Recording each tune and listening back to make changes after every song? ...

My experience is 100% with small rooms - bars, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. And limited PA systems w/ no monitors. The 2 guys who were best w/ mics/sound systems are no longer with our group. And now, we pretty much play only at retirement homes/private parties/coffee shops where we play entirely acoustic. But even when we had those guys, we found rehearsing/recording challenging.

As w/ most groups, we rehearsed in peoples' homes, where various factors are quite different than on a stage/in restaurants/bars, etc. You don't want to run your recording thru the condenser mic, b/c when you play with a mic, the room is also picking up the unmic'ed sounds of players way from the mic. So you need to have a separate mic set up at a distance somewhere that it will pick up the stage mic's feed as well as ambient sound. That's kinda a big lift for a non-pro band.

For me, there is no substitute for having a fellow picker you know and trust in the audience, giving you good feedback. IME, the biggest problem is EVERYONE wants themselves to be louder - with the result that everyone overplays the vocals. Gets especially bad in some up tempo songs, where everyone gets into it and keeps playing louder and louder (and often faster and faster). Many times, as bassist you will have a lot of influence over the dynamics. Hopefully your bandmates are listening, and when you lower the volume, they will as well. Right now, I'm really digging playing as a trio, as we all REALLY listen to each other. A good exercise is to work on more quiet, slow songs. Maybe a few waltzes. Get people used to playing/listening as a group, and as backing to the vocals.

The bass is sorta the exception. You can pretty much thump away w/o drowning anyone out. Just be aware of the periphery of where the mic picks up, and aim away from the mic when you step further inside that range - for vocals or whatever. Like I said, I needed to be in a pretty big room - or outside - before I needed to amp/mic my bass. I could stand well back from the mic - or off to one side - but point my bass towards the mic and the rest of the group. My bandmates could hear me acoustically, and the audience heard a good mix of me direct and thru the mic.

But a banjo or a mando needs to learn their ranges. Depending on what a certain part of a song needs, they can take a step in or out, or turn towards or away from the mic. And if stepping in to provide backing vocals, they have to pick quieter or turn their instrument away from the mic.

Your group is approaching a sweet spot when EVERYONE wants to contribute but not be selfish...

 

[Don Hergert]

Your group is approaching a sweet spot when EVERYONE wants to contribute but not be selfish...

In our band we tell ourselves all the time -- the role of each band member is to make everyone else in the band sound great. BTW, this is one of the most important lessons that people can learn from jamming.

 

[Abington]

In my opinion, the best microphone ever made for a group using a single mic is the venerable RCA 44 (or various mics made with that design, like the AEA R44). The "reach" of that mic is incredible. Your "Louise" may be as good... I don't know.

Have you successfully used a classic-style ribbon microphone for live sound reinforcement in this way? My impression is that this would be a total non-starter due to feedback stemming from the figure-8 polar pattern. Maybe that's not as big a problem as I thought?

In any case, I would not recommend it to a working bluegrass musician, as an RCA 44 or a high quality modern copy will run you more than $3,000.00, needs to be stored upright to prevent ribbon sag, would require an external preamplifier to get enough headroom on standard-issue mixing boards, and is liable to be destroyed by an unknowing sound tech who runs phantom power to the microphone.

 

[Wasnex]

I wrote a rather long post on this subject a few years ago: If you are interested, here it is: Single Mic Technique?

Hopefully you get the idea, but of course some of the content about how the HPF is set should be adjusted if you have a bass in the ensemble. The process is the same but the knee of the HPF is likely to be an octave lower.

Here is another post from a related thread: Anyone Just Used Condenser Mics for Live Sound?

You may want to read both threads from top to bottom.

 

[AGCurry]

Have you successfully used a classic-style ribbon microphone for live sound reinforcement in this way? My impression is that this would be a total non-starter due to feedback stemming from the figure-8 polar pattern. Maybe that's not as big a problem as I thought?

In any case, I would not recommend it to a working bluegrass musician, as an RCA 44 or a high quality modern copy will run you more than $3,000.00, needs to be stored upright to prevent ribbon sag, would require an external preamplifier to get enough headroom on standard-issue mixing boards, and is liable to be destroyed by an unknowing sound tech who runs phantom power to the microphone.

Yes, I have used my AEA R44 in this way.
Feedback depends on where the PA speakers and monitors are. If off to the side, the speakers are in the null of the pickup pattern. If monitors are in front of the group pointing back towards it, forget it.
You're right about needing a preamp. The Cloudlifter works fine and insulates the mic from phantom power.
There is the risk of a numbskull blowing into the mic and breaking the ribbon. By the same token, you don't want to use it without a sock outside on a windy day (wind noise).
The mic sits upright in its case.

 

[neddyrow]

I had a Louise and didn't have much luck going the single mic route. The side address isn't very sensitive. I have had way better luck using an Audio Technica 4033. Plus you'll need to worry about wind screens. Del McCoury Band used one for years with great success. Sold the Louise and Have 2 AT 4033s. Same price. Only need one for small gigs - have two for larger ones.