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Double Bass Help with Nadine

M

metaphor

Nov 10, 2011
17
0
#1
I recently bought and returned my Nadine microphone. I really wanted to use it but, I could not get a usable level out of it. My amp just howled to even get minimal sound. I even bought their recommended DI. I spoke with the company rep and they had no solutions. After speaking with an engineer friend he informed me that as a ribbon mic it needs a preamp. I want to give the Nadine another try but I need a recomendation on a usable solution. I play mostly smaller clubs and just use my Phil Jones briefcase amp. I have a Markley dual DI which allows me to input both my Fishman Full Circle and an Underwood on the bridge wings. I want to stop using the Underwood because they are so delicate and don't really sound that good. Ideally, a preamp that would allow me to plug in the Fishman and the Nadine would be great. If not that, something that will just give me a decent level. Any suggestions are warmly welcomed. Thanks!
www.meettheseavers.com
 
#2
The Nadine is a very nice mic but it is not a great solution for live use with an amp in my experience. For recording or sending to the house mix it could sound really nice.

It is not a ribbon microphone, it is a condenser microphone and therefore requires external phantom power accomplished through the recommend Rolls unit, or from a preamp, amp, or interface.

It is a very live mic and has a wide pickup pattern, which means that it will hear your bass well but also just about any other noise in the room to some extent.

This can work ok in certain situations, but getting a decent sound without feedback out of any amp will be a challenge, as will any isolation from sources like drums and amps/speakers nearby.

If you are recording, or going into the house system live with someone actively mixing I think this mic can sound really nice. Coming out of a personal amp for smaller club/room use- in my experience this microphone will be problematic. It is true that a good preamp could help dial in and out the problem frequencies, but only to a certain extent.
 
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#3
In my experience the Underwood was anything but fragile. Mine lasted a decade till I tired of the sound. I bet it will still work. As for a mic - unless you're a star playing in ideal settings with experienced sound techs or play quiet drummerless gigs, forget it and get a tonedexter. You can keep your pickup sound and blend it with the quasi mic sound and it's one cable in, one cable out. Another for FOH if you want it. Great feedback control and no bleed
 
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#4
As scottcharles mentioned before... you need +48V phantom power to use the Nadine...
Nadine — Ear Trumpet Labs
where do you get this? As far as I know the Briefcase doesn't provide phantom power, so you have to solve this problem in another way...for example with an preamp or using a phantom power supply
Amazon.com : phantom power adapter
 
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#5
I watched Martin Wind use the Nadine very successfully at the last live ISB convention in conjunction with the Acoustic Image Double Shot and a Clarus SL-2, in a piano trio and bass quartet. Perhaps that was just a fortuitous situation but in that setting the Nadine worked great and I was way back in the hall. On a personal note I rarely use either of my Remic 540o Mic’s Back to my amp. Pickups are just easier. Just my take.
 
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#7
@scottcharles is correct about it being a LDC (large diaphragm condenser) and not a ribbon, and also about it needing phantom power to operate. I wrote this review of the Nadine back in 2018 - it includes sound samples that help understand the amount of bleed. I would consider it to be one of the best FOH mics available, but would not use it through an amp. If I were going that route, then @Seanto 's post above covers about the best way to do that, but I also agree with his conclusions.
 
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#8
sean_on_bass said:
If i want to use a mic on a gig, i pretty much go the "Grenadier" route with a powered PA speaker up on a pole. But if the band i am playing with is too loud even that won't be an option. I never mix mics and bass amps, it has just never worked for me.
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I want to start going this route as well... I just got the grace felix to blend my pick up with my nadine.. but am confused about how I want to send my signal to FOH. Should I send the blend or just the nadine signal? How do I then setup my sound on stage? If the sound guy throws me through the monitors, I get way too much feedback. Should I bring my own powered PA speaker? How does that get plugged into my setup?
 
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#9
Elliot Kuhlman said:
I want to start going this route as well... I just got the grace felix to blend my pick up with my nadine.. but am confused about how I want to send my signal to FOH. Should I send the blend or just the nadine signal? How do I then setup my sound on stage? If the sound guy throws me through the monitors, I get way too much feedback. Should I bring my own powered PA speaker? How does that get plugged into my setup?
Click to expand...

i think @Ric Vice can help with any Felix specific questions. But what i do i sent a signal to a powered speaker on a stand as a personal/band bass monitor. Then if there is a monitor there for me from the house system i can tell the sound guy i don't need bass in my monitor since i already got it covered. Presumably the Felix will have an output you can send to a powered speaker for yourself and a second output you can send to the FOH board.

Also i would send just the Nadine signal to FOH but its a personal decision really.
 
#10
I sent just my Nadine signal to FOH the other night and the sound guy "wasn't getting the right bass frequencies" ..not really sure what he meant and it was a stressful sound check for other reasons so I didn't get the time to work with him on the sound. Anyways, the signal was insanely weak and not a focused bass sound so I really couldn't hear myself with the other instruments (guitar, mando, cello). Not to mention, he could barely put me through the monitors without feedback... hence I am looking into the felix blend and alternative monitor sitions to avoid horrible situations like this again where Im basically playing blind and don't even trust my sound is okay on FOH. What powered monitor for bass do you recommend? (fyi I also did not have my lifeline pickup at this gig)
 
#11
The Grace Designs Felix, can route the Mic FOH while sending the pickup to your backline amplifier. Some sound guys are great others are definitely not. I would be very suspect of a sound tech who said "wasn't getting the right bass frequencies". Generally,
I finds that Sound Tech's have much more experience with microphones so I send that FOH. I never send the piezo FOH, nor do I send a blend of the two FOH. Just the microphone. I also don't often use monitors, unless they have a dedicated channel just for
the bass, which is rarely the case. I've heard the Nadine sound really exceptional as Martin Wind uses one. I know it's really frustrating, but trust your sound through your backline. Sound techs are rarely great, usually just ok, and often .......... (fill in the blank).
 
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#12
Ric Vice said:
The Grace Designs Felix, can route the Mic FOH while sending the pickup to your backline amplifier. Some sound guys are great others are definitely not. I would be very suspect of a sound tech who said "wasn't getting the right bass frequencies". Generally,
I finds that Sound Tech's have much more experience with microphones so I send that FOH. I never send the piezo FOH, nor do I send a blend of the two FOH. Just the microphone. I also don't often use monitors, unless they have a dedicated channel just for
the bass, which is rarely the case. I've heard the Nadine sound really exceptional as Martin Wind uses one. I know it's really frustrating, but trust your sound through your backline. Sound techs are rarely great, usually just ok, and often .......... (fill in the blank).
Click to expand...
What is the logic behind not sending a blend to FOH? If you like the blend more than just the sound of the mic? Recently the mic was picking up way too much on stage sound noise and not enough focused bass. Blending the two got me a focus and punchy sound (from the pic up) but the airy mic sound kept everything still sounding like an acoustic instrument. In large venues with a loud on stage presence from you bandmates monitors and loud crowd noise, I am still terrified of a condenser mic.
 
#13
Elliot Kuhlman said:
What is the logic behind not sending a blend to FOH? If you like the blend more than just the sound of the mic? Recently the mic was picking up way too much on stage sound noise and not enough focused bass. Blending the two got me a focus and punchy sound (from the pic up) but the airy mic sound kept everything still sounding like an acoustic instrument. In large venues with a loud on stage presence from you bandmates monitors and loud crowd noise, I am still terrified of a condenser mic.
Click to expand...

Alot of us consider a full mic sound to be better than a mic/pickup blend. But it comes down to what you want the audience to hear really. If you think the blended signal is superior then you can send that to the board.
 
#18
After many years of experience with blending pickup and mic I´d say if you want to get the max out of it you should use a preamp with a variable phase alignment on one of the two signals. Flip the phase by 180° only didn´t fit my needs. And I had to accept that this is not a set and forget thing, but that I have to adjust the phase setting depending different rooms and maybe on a slightly different mic position (distance from the top). I could get a full, strong and healthy sound only with the two signals perfect in phase.

With a drummer who is not experienced to play adapted to acoustic instruments, I would not use a mic at all. In a quiet setting I´d go mic only, but this was very rare. More noise on stage - more pickup.

Also be aware of the fact that you need to have a powerful acoustic sound if you want to use a mic. With a pickup there is much more headroom for "cheating", while a mic really only can amplify what it hears right in front of your bass. If the bass sounds weak, and the stage is noisy and loud...no way.
 
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#19
Elliot Kuhlman said:
What is the logic behind not sending a blend to FOH? If you like the blend more than just the sound of the mic? Recently the mic was picking up way too much on stage sound noise and not enough focused bass. Blending the two got me a focus and punchy sound (from the pic up) but the airy mic sound kept everything still sounding like an acoustic instrument. In large venues with a loud on stage presence from you bandmates monitors and loud crowd noise, I am still terrified of a condenser mic.
Click to expand...

It’s a personal preference, based on my bass, pickup, microphone and many years of experience. I’m using a Remic DB 5400LB. It’s got a very different Polar Pattern that keeps feedback to a minimum. I use the Ehrlund EAP for my pickup. It has a very pleasant tone quality so combining the two would be redundant and for me personally overly complicated. Just my take. I tried the blended approach for many years with and decided that it wasn’t for me. Just my take.

P.S. I’ve experimented with blending since the dark ages with the Fishman Bass Blender and then years later a Headway EDB-1 with the very first run DPA 4099B’s. It’s just not for me.
 
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#20
Matthias Hacker said:
After many years of experience with blending pickup and mic I´d say if you want to get the max out of it you should use a preamp with a variable phase alignment on one of the two signals. Flip the phase by 180° only didn´t fit my needs. And I had to accept that this is not a set and forget thing, but that I have to adjust the phase setting depending different rooms and maybe on a slightly different mic position (distance from the top). I could get a full, strong and healthy sound only with the two signals perfect in phase..
Click to expand...

Good words,
I understand the newer Grace Designs Felix has a variable phase. Is that what you’re using?
The only other unit I can think of is the Euphonic Audio Doubler.
 

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