Hey, listen up, cab manufacturers! Rant coming!

[RickenBoogie]

See, I always wondered why Ampeg's SVT 15 was rated at 200 watts RMS, while many others, with a same size box, were rated much higher, up to 600 watts RMS. I've found personal nirvanna running a hot little 300 watt amp through a 600 watt cab- and it sounds great, too. It'd be nice if EVERYONE at least used the same standard in measurement, so you could compare straight from the spec sheet.

 

[Jim Campbell]

And then there's the professional engineers, like myself, who not only have experience with the 'amazing production cabs' out there, in many cases they designed them.
I wish all the commercial cabs I've designed were truthfully advertised with complete and accurate specs, but that's not my decision. IMO that will only happen when manufacturers come to believe that it's in their interest to do so.

Jimmy, 90% of the drivers out there are Eminence, and anyone who wants to know the real world capabilities of his cab can look at the Eminence cab designs for those drivers, like those for the ubiquitous Deltalite II 2510:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

There's very little information about the real world capabilities of speakers that can't be discovered with sufficient research.

but how many have the necessary expertise to make those comparisons....having said that,i'd definitely like to see manufactures list which yardstick they use to describe the performance of their gear/products and reviewers in gear mags could go a long way by establishing some kind of concrete values against which every piece of gear could be measured.....

 

[f.clef]

i can't stop you all from naming the offenders, but i'd rather not make this thread about pointing fingers, plus if someone gets named as an offender that actually does publish legit power handling specs, that's not fair. so let's just name the ones who do it right and let them serve as an example that you can sell gear by being honest and not using unrealistic numbers.
!

I guess I've been lucky so far, but would be very interested in watching some pointing fingers here:

[...]but my Scout 12s sound like crap long before they swallow their 300 watt rated max. ie, in the real world, if I tried to give them everything a 300 watt amp had on tap they'd buckle sonically, even if they wouldn't suffer irreversible damage, ditto for Epi UL2-112s. That's been my experience.

Yes. (Some of) those who shall not be named are named! More, please.

I have NEVER had a high quality cab like Epifani, Bergantino, TC, TecAmp, etc., etc. not live up to its rated power nor fart out at even higher power deliver levels.

And, of course, one man's fart is another's tone. Didn't Mike Meyers once note that, everyone likes his own brand?

 

[SactoBass]

+1 to JimmyM's original post in this thread. I too have experienced what Jimmy has experienced......playing through cabs that fart out when they shouldn't based on their advertised specs.

Even though Jimmy asked in his original post for us to list cabs that really do live up to their advertised specs, I didn't see any listed after his post (unless I missed it). Edit: KenJ listed some brands (Berg, TecAmp, Epifani).

This isn't a cab, but a driver.......how about the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF? It seems, based on everything I have read on TB, that these drivers really can handle the 450 watt rating because its xmax is designed to handle it.

 

[JimmyM]

dont just jump on the bandwagon that cabs are under rated and thats why they "fart out". they can also fart due to not enough power in your amp... If not enough the amp can not control the speaker correctly. Rule of thumb....twice the power than what the speakers rated. Usually if you run the speaker too hard you'll bounce the coil off of the magnet...a sound you'll never forget.

sorry smoov, but that's been proven to be a myth so many times it's not funny.

good discussion, guys...keep it going!

 

[SactoBass]

dont just jump on the bandwagon that cabs are under rated and thats why they "fart out". they can also fart due to not enough power in your amp... If not enough the amp can not control the speaker correctly. Rule of thumb....twice the power than what the speakers rated. Usually if you run the speaker too hard you'll bounce the coil off of the magnet...a sound you'll never forget.

smoov....that would be amp clipping, not speaker farting.

 

[georgestrings]

sorry smoov, but that's been proven to be a myth so many times it's not funny.

good discussion, guys...keep it going!

Yeah, and it's not the 1st time he's given bad advice here...



- georgestrings

 

[xjeremiahx]

And, of course, one man's fart is another's tone.

epic.

edit: jimmy...send me some info on this in a PM if you would...i'm curious to see what i have in my store that's not really telling the truth...as I'd like to be able to pass the correct info onto my customers. Bill - feel free to chime in as well.

 

[georgestrings]

Ironically enough, Jimmy posted Ampeg as being "honest" about power handling - although anyone who's ever played an SVT-410HE or one of their 115s can tell you that they're pretty easy to make fart out... Hell, it's not all that hard to make an SVT810e fart out with well below it's rating, for that matter...

I swear, I don't mean to pick on you, Jimmy - and I pretty much agree with the OP's premise - but you really do have a blind spot when it comes to any of Ampeg's shortcomings...



- georgestrings

 

[JimmyM]

Ironically enough, Jimmy posted Ampeg as being "honest" about power handling - although anyone who's ever played an SVT-410HE or one of their 115s can tell you that they're pretty easy to make fart out... Hell, it's not all that hard to make an SVT810e fart out with well below it's rating, for that matter...

I swear, I don't mean to pick on you, Jimmy - and I pretty much agree with the OP's premise - but you really do have a blind spot when it comes to any of Ampeg's shortcomings...

bullcrap! i don't suppose you remember when i was railing on about how i thought a lot of the ampeg 810e's i was getting on gigs sucked. or how many times i called the previous head of loud an idiot. you can make any cab fart out if you run the low end really hot, but that's just diverting wattage that would be more evenly spread to the low end, giving the illusion that it's farting out before it reaches its max clean wattage. i've used lots of 410he's and cranked them, and i've also slammed 810e's with a bridged svt 4 pro on occasion, and as far as i can tell, their power handling ratings are pretty accurate. granted, i don't have the electronic gadgets to measure them accurately, but i have a buttload of experience with ampeg cabs and i really think they're honest specs, or at the very least way more honest than most. how many other cab makers tell you the point that the low end reaches 3db down and not try to pretend the -10db point is the -3db point?

 

[BurningSkies]

There are a lot of people on TB selling things. Not all of them are pro engineers, some are players, some are just participants.

When it comes to technical matters its easy to chose who are the ones to listen to if you have discernment.

 

[JimmyM]

There are a lot of people on TB selling things. Not all of them are pro engineers, some are players, some are just participants.

When it comes to technical matters its easy to chose who are the ones to listen to if you have discernment.

well george is right...i definitely love most ampeg stuff, so you can all take that as you want. but if i thought ampeg was bs'ing, i believe by now i would have said something.

 

[BurningSkies]

well george is right...i definitely have ampeg bias, so you can all take that as you want. but if i thought ampeg was bs'ing, i believe by now i would have said something.

Not really aimed at someone in specific as much as an observation.

Some would have us ignoring those who do have valuable information and explanation, some would want us to take manufacturers at face value, some would like us to 'just use our ears' instead of paying attention to how things work on a mechanical and physical level.

People profit in different ways from the viewpoint they post and its just important to remember that.

Now, you Jimmy...are someone who rides the line...something that many don't do well. Understanding the science but being able to apply it in a real life situation. While I'm not necessarily in love with Ampeg, I agree there are a LOT of manufacturers, even very well thought-of ones who mislead the bass playing public.

 

[jeff7bass]

Everything has a price point. I don't expect a 300 dollar Carvin cab to outperform an 600 dollar LDS cab but I do expect it to perform well for a 300 dollar cab. I just know that when I start exceeding the sound limits of a cab that I have to adjust the EQ accordingly. Common sense!
I've seen guys adjust their volume way up and also crank up the bass knob up at the same time. Not good. That 15" combo ain't never going to sound like an SVT 810 stack so quit trying! You can crank up the watts but ease up on the bass and gets those mids right. Then it works.

 

[f.clef]

People profit in different ways from the viewpoint they post and its just important to remember that.

In many cases, sure...

While I'm not necessarily in love with Ampeg, I agree there are a LOT of manufacturers, even very well thought-of ones who mislead the bass playing public.

Please, examples. Especially within the "very well thought-of " to "high quality" to "quality" categories.

 

[BurningSkies]

In many cases, sure...



Please, examples. Especially within the "very well thought-of " to "high quality" to "quality" categories.

Take a look at the Bass 400 or 400 plus. Amp, not cab but same story. They touted it as a 400w amp, when in fact its a sub-300w amp. Mesa rode that one for decades.

 

[will33]

Actually, I believe the power handling specs of cabs are quite accurate, and come directly from the OEM manufacturers of the drivers used in the cab :

Sorry, they're not, and I don't need a 6-8+ year degree to both understand and hear that. Do some of them sound good?....yeah. Can you plug a 600watt (alledgedly) amp into a 400watt (alledgedly) cab and not blow it?......sure. But the fact is that the fantasy still remains, mostly due to user ignorance and bimbo's with marketing degrees. 40hz-20k @ 103db in a 410 bass cab = BS. Although they may sound good to your ears, they cannot do what they claim period, there's no getting around it.


-Jimmy, as much as I like to say "right on, man" I also understand that as long as "image" prevails and as long as people think 80 or 160hz = 40, the #@$% will keep rolling downhill. I would love to see a cab manufacturer say "my cab falls off @ 60hz and then have a brief/simple/plain english explanation as to why you don't need 32hz response to have a solid low B. I also understand that company B who claims "my cab will play to 36 and do it loud as hell" sells more cabs.

Keep pushing back the frontiers of ignorance, man. Many of us who've been playing for a while now understand this thanks in part (a big part) to this site and the members of it.....problem is, there's a new sucker born every minute, hence those in the know have to keep repeating themselves.

I think everybody needs to sign up for an ear test. Do they realize that making a cab that can play to the low 50's will give a slammin' full low B. Do they also realize that the same cab could be a bit overkill if all you play is a 4string in standard tuning??????

 

[BurningSkies]

Sorry, they're not, and I don't need a 6-8+ year degree to both understand and hear that. Do some of them sound good?....yeah. Can you plug a 600watt (alledgedly) amp into a 400watt (alledgedly) cab and not blow it?......sure. But the fact is that the fantasy still remains, mostly due to user ignorance and bimbo's with marketing degrees. 40hz-20k @ 103db in a 410 bass cab = BS. Although they may sound good to your ears, they cannot do what they claim period, there's no getting around it.


-Jimmy, as much as I like to say "right on, man" I also understand that as long as "image" prevails and as long as people think 80 or 160hz = 40, the #@$% will keep rolling downhill. I would love to see a cab manufacturer say "my cab falls off @ 60hz and then have a brief/simple/plain english explanation as to why you don't need 32hz response to have a solid low B. I also understand that company B who claims "my cab will play to 36 and do it loud as hell" sells more cabs.

Keep pushing back the frontiers of ignorance, man. Many of us who've been playing for a while now understand this thanks in part (a big part) to this site and the members of it.....problem is, there's a new sucker born every minute, hence those in the know have to keep repeating themselves.

I think everybody needs to sign up for an ear test. Do they realize that making a cab that can play to the low 50's will give a slammin' full low B. Do they also realize that the same cab could be a bit overkill if all you play is a 4string in standard tuning??????

Ah yes, there is a recent cab manufacturer who has released a magic 4x10 that defies physics isn't there.

 

[will33]

Apparently, there are a few of them.

 

[JimmyM]

-Jimmy, as much as I like to say "right on, man" I also understand that as long as "image" prevails and as long as people think 80 or 160hz = 40, the #@$% will keep rolling downhill. I would love to see a cab manufacturer say "my cab falls off @ 60hz and then have a brief/simple/plain english explanation as to why you don't need 32hz response to have a solid low B. I also understand that company B who claims "my cab will play to 36 and do it loud as hell" sells more cabs.

again, and i guess i'll have to take more crap for bringing it up but the 810e states right on the ampeg website 58 hz @ -3db, 40 hz @ -10db. no explanation of why you don't need more than that, but honesty hasn't hurt sales of that cab in the least. sure, they have a 40 year history with it, but bass players aren't really known for being bound by tradition, and it would still have to be able to compete in today's world to sell.

Keep pushing back the frontiers of ignorance, man. Many of us who've been playing for a while now understand this thanks in part (a big part) to this site and the members of it.....problem is, there's a new sucker born every minute, hence those in the know have to keep repeating themselves.

I think everybody needs to sign up for an ear test. Do they realize that making a cab that can play to the low 50's will give a slammin' full low B. Do they also realize that the same cab could be a bit overkill if all you play is a 4string in standard tuning??????

well what you're saying is true...buying gear is a caviar emptor situation. but lying about performance only takes you so far, and then it works against you when people find out the truth.