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Double Bass Hide glue not holding

A

abracadabra

Guest
Apr 21, 2011
33
0
Maine
#1
So I picked up this pretty cool old Czech ply bass, Wenzel Kohler. Its needed some work, nothing major mostly some gluing. I managed to reglue the fingerboard down using hide glue, it came out perfect.

Today I got around to gluing some sections on the body that were seperating, the biggest one being a section where the back was coming off the side, maybe a total length of 6 inches.

I used this hide glue: Buy Behlen Ground Hide Glue, 1 Pound at Woodcraft.com

I set it up just like I did for the fingerboard, got some glue in there, and clamped it up.

I just took the clamps off and it popped right open.

Now I figure its either:
-the glue wasn't mixed right (even though I did it the same way as I did the day before, according to the directions on the can, mix w/water, heat, etc)

-I didn't wait long enough to let it dry (probably waited 7-8 hours)

-maybe the surfaces needed to be cleaner?

-maybe the glue isn't strong enough for this application?

Any thoughts would be great. Part of me says f-it, use some wood glue, that'll hold. Talk me out of it!

I only have two other really small sections to glue on the body and this bass is ready to go. The action is great and its plays and sounds as good as my Kay C-1, different of course but still nice.

Thanks!

mark
 
#2
No wood glue. It won't stick to the old hide glue in the joint anyway.
How long did you soak the glue granules, what temperature did you heat it to, and how long did you maintain that temperature? Did you use a double boiler, a glue pot, or some other rig? How much pressure did you put on the clamps?
 
#4
KUNGfuSHERIFF said:
No wood glue. It won't stick to the old hide glue in the joint anyway.
How long did you soak the glue granules, what temperature did you heat it to, and how long did you maintain that temperature? Did you use a double boiler, a glue pot, or some other rig? How much pressure did you put on the clamps?
Click to expand...

Well I don't think I cleaned out much old glue, that could be a problem.

The glue was heated to around 150, it stayed there while I did the job, I used a tin can in a pot of water on the stove. I used to clamps, the Irwin quick clamp style, the only ones I had on hand that were long enough.

I'll try again tomorrow. Clean out the surface more, let it stay clamped all day long.

mark
 
#5
You do have to move fairly quickly-- if the glue gels before the clamps are tightened (not still liquid, in other words) then it will not achieve a bond. I have had a couple of fingerboard failures that I am pretty sure happened that way. So I heat my fingerboards pretty thoroughly before applying the glue, nowadays, to give myself extended working time.

All that said, plate-to-rib seams are usually pretty forgiving.
 
#7
Is this the same as granular hide glue?
I only intend to do minor repairs on my bass-- bumpers, etc., and don't need a pound can or an electric glue-pot,and my main concern is to not "hurt" the bass.
Thanks,
Gerry
 
#8
abracadabra said:
Well I don't think I cleaned out much old glue, that could be a problem.
Click to expand...

There you go. New hide glue will bond to old hide glue, but if there is any other adhesive or other crap in the seam, failure is pretty much guaranteed.

gerry, I've only used the granular stuff, but the bottled liquid hide glue sold at the hardware store is called inferior by people who know a lot more than I do. My luthier gave me a Ziploc full of granular hide glue, and I gerryrig (ha ha) a double-boiler out of whatever happens to be laying around when I need to glue something.
 
#9
gerry grable said:
Is this the same as granular hide glue?
I only intend to do minor repairs on my bass-- bumpers, etc., and don't need a pound can or an electric glue-pot,and my main concern is to not "hurt" the bass.
Thanks,
Gerry
Click to expand...

No, it's absolutely not. It's not recommended for lutherie, except some people (like Chuck Traeger I believe?) recommend it to be used with combination of real hide glue to glue tops to ribs, where you don't want a very strong joint.

But... granular hide glue is cheap, and the granules should last a very long time (years) if properly stored. A glue pot can be rigged up for about $5.

George
 
#10
All of the above. Make sure the granules are well cooked before you start, make sure you get the clamps on while the glue is still liquid, Clamp tightly, and leave them on a full day.

IMO, old glue doesn't need to be removed completely, but should be softened with hot water at least. Also, be aware that hide glue doesn't perform well when asked to fill gaps. If the surfaces don't mate well then you have to fix that first. Unless you want to break out the epoxy:eek:
 
#14
you don't have to invest in a glue pot especially if you are using a very small amount. I put the hide glue in a small jar with water then put the jar in a pot with hot water. When all is ready I remove the jar from the hot water/pot, the glue stays useable for several minutes, long enough to get the seams together etc
 
#15
powerbass said:
you don't have to invest in a glue pot especially if you are using a very small amount. I put the hide glue in a small jar with water then put the jar in a pot with hot water. When all is ready I remove the jar from the hot water/pot, the glue stays useable for several minutes, long enough to get the seams together etc
Click to expand...

Really? When I turned down the heat before, the surface of the glue mixture started to develop a film less than a minute afterward. That told me the glue is no longer hot enough. I always play it safe and keep the mixture at around 145.

I just use an electric burner, a old can, a small glass jar and a thermometer.

George
 
#16
I bought a used potpourri warmer from the Goodwill store, for $3, equipped it with an empty yeast jar from the kitchen, and have been using that for ten years. The lid of the jar finally rusted out, so I got a new yeast jar, but haven't put it into service yet. :-)

Pretty affordable service.
 
#17
Hide glue sets up in a minute or less once the temperature starts to decrease below 145deg f. You have to work fast to keep it from congealing before you are clamped up. Wood joinery must be very very good and surfaces clean of nothing but wood. It doesn't fill gaps and it won't tolerate any kind of slop. Your environment can't be to cold or to damp.

You can increase your open time by heating the wood you are gluing, try a hair dryer or something like that. The addition of urea can increase the open time but I think sometimes it decreases the bond strength. Most people have their glue pots or heat source right near what they are working on so the glue goes right from the pot to the work without sitting somewhere cooling.
 
#19
You can also reheat the glue in the seam if it gels on you after it is in the seam. Clamp it, wet the seam with a hot water brush, wipe that and any glue off, and hit it with some heat (heat gun, torch, whatever). A little bit of heat will do it, do not damage the finish. You may need to retighten the clamps afterwards.
 
#20
You could also try fish glue. We use it at the shop I work at sometimes. It is stronger than hide glue I've found and still water soluble. Another plus is that it gives you a much longer work time than hide glue. We've had problems with seams not staying shut because the edging is really worn and roughed up, and fish glue has always solved the problem.
 

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