Double Bass High C strings??

[Les Fret]

I have three questions regarding double bass high C strings:
1) What are the options for C strings? Which brands are good? Either steel or hybrid or others. Will mainly use it for bowing.
2) Are there also C strings for solo tuning (so C string tuned to D)?
3) Can the increased tension of a C string tuned to D do any harm if a non solo string is used?

 

[Reiska]

Hi, I have experience on Evah Pirazzi and Obligato high C strings, but I tuned them to B or A. I`ve read that steel high C`s, like Spirocores, can get tricky to play because there`s lots of tension on a very thin string. I have tuned Spiro Red Mitchell mit / weich high A and Belcanto solo A to B too and they do get very tense and very, very wolfy on my bass.

I tuned Obligato fiths set and both Spiro mittel / weich Red Mitchell set to DAEB and you could see, feel and hear the tension, even when those mittels compare to Spiro starks in tension when tuned a wholetone higher. Single string is a different strory, I had no problems tuning Spiro weich low C to D with orch / solo AEB, with B beeing a downtuned high C. I still quess that the higher strings are more prone to sound and feel very wolfy and tense comparing to low strings, when tuned higher.

Scale lenght and string height plays an important role too, I have now my mittel Red Mitchells set low on my backup 1/2 -size laminate with 98cm mensure. Feels very comfortable and even the high A mellowed down on this bass. They felt and sounded completely different on my hybrid main bass with 104cm mensure.

You can get some high E strings at least from Pirastro on a special order. Some use them for 5ths tuned 5-stringers. Custom string makers, like Gerold Genssler, is another choice.

Doublemidi is the man to ask about high C strings and string tensions!!!

Hope this helps, R

 

[Sam Dingle]

Innovation makes some high C strings so do Corelli

 

[benharrisfan]

Pirastro Passione high C should be okay tuned up to a D. Otherwise Gerold Genßler can make a high D string.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I have three questions regarding double bass high C strings:
1) What are the options for C strings? Which brands are good? Either steel or hybrid or others. Will mainly use it for bowing.
2) Are there also C strings for solo tuning (so C string tuned to D)?
3) Can the increased tension of a C string tuned to D do any harm if a non solo string is used?

It would be helpful if you tell us which kind of strings you like and what scale and action height you use.

Almost all high C strings come only in a medium tension version (which might be more or less tension absolutely), the exception is Thomastik Spirocore Weich (not in the catalogue) and Velvet Compas 180 (Solo = high D in medium tension). Unfortunately the manufacturing quality of the Compas high C and high D is bad and Compas 180 is a bit tricky to bow.

Often the regular high C strings don't fit well to the normal set (tension higher of lower than the rest of the set).

Personally I don't like sets where the E has less tension than the G (most Corelli sets except the F). In these sets the high C often has more tension than the G.

I also don't like the thin steel core strings because of the less stretchy core and little area on your finger that needs to take the pressure.

If you want some recommendations for an up to 105 cm scale here are some:

1. Spirocore Weich 3/4 with Spirocore Weich high C (custom string available by direct order from Thomastik)
2. Evah Pirazzi Weich with Efrano high C (naked gut)
3. Innovation Braided with a new chromesteel wound high C (directly from innovation, prototype string, get in contact with me to get the right one)
4. Spirocore Mittel 3/4 with Obligato high C
5. Spirocore Mittel 3/4 with Spirocore Mittel 3/4 high C
6. Spirocore Mittel 4/4 with Spirocore Mittel 4/4 high C (for a bit lower tension with the Mittel sound)

Obligato and Efrano high C don't fit well to the normal set. Efrano high C might work with a heavy Efrano set directly available from the German manufacturer.

D'Addario I'd planning to make high C strings for all of it's sets, but that might take several years. A Zyex high C might be interesting.

You can get any naked gut tension directly from gut string manufacturers on request, so this is the easiest way (or try Efrano heavy), the problem with high C strings is, that only a few will be sold, so not many prototypes will be checked out and also the possible variations on material and weight are rather few compared to the lower strings.

The thicker the string the less pizz sustain you get in higher positions. This is not a problem with bowing, it even might help for bowing up there. The thinner a string, the weaker it sounds in the lower positions (just my experience, there might be exceptions). The less tension a string has the easier it is to press down and the higher theft the action might get. The less stretchy a string is the harder it is to press down in higher action and positions, but very stretchy strings have a dynamic limit, where you cannot get louder even if you put more energy into the string (at least with pizz). With lower action which is often needed for steel core strings, often a fingerboard dressing is needed to avoid buzzing and even then the string is hard to grab in pizz and might sound weak.

My personal options might be less than yours since I need a high C for a 110 cm scale for jazz pizz and bowing. But I don't need to go to the end of the fingerboard most of the time (which means almost never). For me the Braided together with some of the new Innovation prototypes work fine. But without the prototypes I would be happy with the Braided and a chromesteel wound prototype high C from Innovation. But if you can handle the different bowing of the metal wound Evah Weich set and god naked gut Efrano high C or get the Efrano heavy strings with the only high C regularly available this might work well.

Maybe I should publish my high C string tension measurements (I currently don't give away the measurements of my sets, because I want to collect as many strings for measurement in Germany first to get more data).

BTW, tuning a high C string a whole tone higher is not a good idea. Tension will raise about 16 to 17% for this interval. It might be an option for low tension high C strings (like the SuperSensitive Sensicore), but you risk breaking the string. I once tried to tune a Sensicore high C string higher because it sounded so weak, it still sounded weak and broke shortly before I reached the high F (a perfect fourth higher). An Obligato high C broke because of the too narrow slot in the nut. A SuperSensitive Supreme (no longer available, but nice soft bowed sound) after two years in the drawer and tuning it on a 110 cm scale to pitch.

I still haven't found the best set for me, but the Innovation prototypes being close. But development needs time at Innovation and currently I'm a bit busy to contact them again.
I stopped buying more high C strings after I found steel core is not what I want for a high C on my longer scale instrument.

 

[Les Fret]

Thanks everybody for your input! especially DoubleMIDI for the very thorough reply. I have a 3/4 double bass with 106 cm scale with medium to low action. I am using D'addario Helicore hybrids medium right now. For me that is the best compromise arco/pizz steel string I have used so far. But I might switch to a more speciallized arco string set now. So buying a 5 string set with high C is also an option for me. I very much prefer even tension among strings. Soundwise I like a more bright violin/cello like sound but not harsh.

I am playing Indian music on my double bass lately. I am experimenting with my tuning now and am planning to use a G-D-G-D tuning (from low to high). Sort of a tenor bass open tuning (hybrid between bass and cello). I use D-G-D-G now but I want to remove the low D and add a high D instead. If I like this tuning I might even buy a new bass for this tuning and keep my other bass in normal EADG tuning. Was thinking about a 5 string bass also but I am not sure if I like that. But first I have to get a high D string to experiment with.

 

[Reiska]

I got pretty close with what I called solo 5ths -tuning, D-A-E-B. I tried and some people use D-A-D-A tuning as well. It`s great fun and very expensive to mess around with tunings. I decided not to sell any of my " experimental " strings, if I feel like trying new things out someday. Now I have my main bass in 4ths and backup bass in regular 5ths. Let us know how you ended up, it would be nice to hear that Indian stuff!

R

 

[Reiska]

Time-vice these two virtuosos kinda float around each other at times, I love it anyway.

 

[Les Fret]

haha..Yes, I know that video. I like it very much but it doesn't have much to do with 'real' traditional classical Indian music. I will keep my eye on the for sale section for a C string. If someone here has a spare C string which I can buy please let me know.

 

[Reiska]

Yep but Rabbath kinda catches the vibe anyway, or that`s how my non-specialized northern-european ears hear it Don`t know how kosher it is though . However, it would be nice to hear examples!!!

R

 

[Les Fret]

Yep but Rabbath kinda catches the vibe anyway, or that`s how my non-specialized northern-european ears hear it Don`t know how kosher it is though . However, it would be nice to hear examples!!!

You are right, that's why I like that video anyway. I am just into this music on double bass for 6 months now but I also play sitar for over 10 years. This helps a lot. When I feel I am ready I will post something. Like all things this take time. It's not easy.

 

[Les Fret]

BTW, tuning a high C string a whole tone higher is not a good idea. Tension will raise about 16 to 17% for this interval. It might be an option for low tension high C strings (like the SuperSensitive Sensicore), but you risk breaking the string..

So what other options do I have for high C (arco) strings when I want to tune to D? Still want a full sound with somewhat the same tension as my other strings (106 cm scale). I am bit afraid for too much tension on the neck and also for a weak sound. Not too fond of Spirocores for bowing but I am not sure about their weich high C.

What about this Thomastik Superflexible high C. I like the normal Superflexibles. Although the (normal) D string had way too much tension compared to the other strings. Not sure what the tension is of their high C? http://www.amazon.com/Thomastik-Infeld-35-Flexible-Double-Single/dp/B004QI8L4E

The price of this Pirastro Eudoxa high C solo is extremely high (141$ for one string!!!): Invalid Link Removed

In contrast; this Pyramid gold is only 14,91 euro! which seems almost too cheap to be true: Invalid Link Removed

And then we have this Pirastro high C solo: Invalid Link Removed

Any experience with these strings?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Hi Les,

I looked into my list of high C string tensions (not manufacturers data but data I measured myself) and recalculated them for your scale and tuning them up for high D. My measurements are not so bad, since the data correlates rather well with the Thomastik data for Spirocores.

High C strings from Thomastik would have way too much tension tuned up, as well as strings from Pirastro and Savarez/Corelli (one M and one TX measured).

Tension data of lower tension high C strings:
———–————————————————–———
Manufacturer String name 105 cm 106 cm 106 cm + 2 half tones tuned up
---------------- -------------- -------- -------- ------------------------------------
SuperSensitive Sensicore 18.8 kg 19.16 kg 24.1 kg
Innovation Braided 19.3 kg 19.67 kg 24.3 kg
Innovation Honey 20.1 kg 20.48 kg 25.8 kg
SuperSensitive Pinnacle 21.9 kg 22.32 kg 28.1 kg
Efrano (naked gut) 24.3 kg 24.77 kg 31.2 kg
Pyramid Soloflex 24.9 kg 25.38 kg 32.0 kg

The real tension tuned up (or with a longer scale) might be a bit lower than the calculated one, since the string stretches and some mass goes into the pegbox, so the mass on the vibrating string length will be reduced and therefor the tension to bring the string up to pitch is a bit lower. There will be some stretching from the under length into the vibrating part of the string, bringing in some mass that was nog there before, but less than what vanishes into the pegbox from the vibrating part.

The last two are really high tuned up, like Spirocore Mittel 3/4. I broke a Sensicore high C tuning it up by four halftones. The Innovation Braided has a robust core for a synthetic core string and might work in their old aluminium wound version (probably still the standard now, I got a chromesteel wound prototype with a higher tension).
The Honey has a mono fiber synthetic core, sounds a bit dark without highs, Sensicore and Braided have a multifiber synthetic core. The Honey might be able to hold the tension too.
The Pinnacle is a rope steel core type of string, sounds a bit like Spiro Mittel with much less tension. But the core is rather thin and at the final tension about 28 kg) it's former sister string Supreme broke.
Efrano and Soloflex are the next lowest high C strings I have data from, but the tension would be higher than your Helicores. Only to show you the regular options ended here. You can always order naked gut as a custom string for an acceptable price, so this would be a better option than the Efrano. Any custom metal wound string gets expensive or you need to buy a lot of the same strings (or both at once).

Unfortunately I cannot recommend the Compas 180 high D due to bad manufacturing, but you might want to ask Nuno from Velvet customer support for a free sample.

Happy Christmas!

 

[Les Fret]

Thank you!!! So the sum up the first two strings in your list (Sensicore and Braided) might be the best for me when I want to tune to D? is the sound still good with those low tension strings? I think a weak sounding C string will turn me off especially if there is much volume difference with the other strings. I might also want to tune back to C sometimes when I want to play 'regular' stuff.

Think my bass can handle the extra tension of the higher tuned C string since my E and A are both tuned a whole step lower. That might compensate for the extra tension of the higher tuned C string I guess? Not sure about that though.

And what about the Spirocore weich 3/4 C string? and do you have any experience with the strings I have mentioned in my post above? there is very little info on the sites.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The first three strings are aluminium wound and have less power than chromesteel wound strings. The Sensicore sounded not much fuller tuned up but a bit. I haven't tried to tune up the Braided and honeys, at least not more than a half tone, because I tried them on a 110 cm scale which has a similar tension than tuning them up by a halftone on a 105 cm scale.
I think closest in tension to regular tuned Helicores Medium might be the Pinnacle. But I don't know how long it will last before it breaks. The aluminium wound Braided or maybe Honey the next ones to try. I don't think you would like the Sensicore. I would try the Pinnacle first, maybe tune it to C first then for a few days to C#, and then slowly to D. If it breaks try the Braided next, if you don't like the sound at all, maybe the Honeys next. You might need to think about changing your basic set to something else. Find the high/exotic strings first and then the others to fill in between. Remember, naked gut is the easiest way to custom tunings, but you need to change your bowing to be able to use them. Mixing naked gut with Evah Weich or Braided should work well, but it would be a good idea to use naked gut on high C and G.

Tuning strings down and up under high tension (high for the intended tension for the string) might break your string earlier. You can try and see if it works of not, but be prepared for breakage and take a spare string with you.

A high tension on the higher strings and a low tension on the lower string is not the best idea. The lower strings may sound weak then and the resonance might suffer.

The Spiro Weich 3/4 is good for a C but not for a D.

 

[Ekol]

Have you heard saskia rao de haas? She is playing a five-stringed cello with sympathetic strings, indian classical music... Fantastic music. Or mark deutcsh? Maybe not classical but certainly inspiered. I cant help you with the c-string but i wish you good luck!

 

[Les Fret]

Again really helpful! Think I will order a Pinnacle high C to try. They are not so expensive so if one breaks not too much money is lost. Have to find a European supplier for that string.

 

[Reiska]

You are right, that's why I like that video anyway. I am just into this music on double bass for 6 months now but I also play sitar for over 10 years. This helps a lot. When I feel I am ready I will post something. Like all things this take time. It's not easy.

I mean that it would be nice to hear all kinds of examples of db in classical Indian / carnatic ( that`s a correct word? ) music context, if you know some nice ones. Your playing for sure, whenever you have something ready and / or feel like it, and whatever there can be found!

It surely ain`t easy I recently got some tala rhythm exercises from a friend of mine and I will have a hand / mouthful with them for a long time...

R

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Again really helpful! Think I will order a Pinnacle high C to try. They are not so expensive so if one breaks not too much money is lost. Have to find a European supplier for that string.

That might not be easy. The source I got SuperSensitive strings from (Mastri/Bassico in Germany) no longer sells them. The easiest way would to look at SuperSensitives website for information and if there is nothing mentioned about European importers, send them a mail to ask if they have a dealer in Europe. If not you might need to order from the USA.

BTW, the 28 kg tension for the uptuned high C Pinnacle is between a Spirocore Weich G (27 kg) and less than Spirocore Mittel G (29 kg). About closer to the Weich, because these are tension values off the 105 cm scale, so a bit more on your 106 cm scale.

 

[Les Fret]

I mean that it would be nice to hear all kinds of examples of db in classical Indian / carnatic ( that`s a correct word? ) music context, if you know some nice ones. Your playing for sure, whenever you have something ready and / or feel like it, and whatever there can be found!

Well there aren't many examples of 'real' classical Indian music on double bass. There are a few cello players but also not much. I take lessons from a violin player. Part of the fun is that I have to find out for myself how to translate it to the bass.

Have you heard saskia rao de haas? She is playing a five-stringed cello with sympathetic strings, indian classical music...!

Yes I know her music. That's what I mean with 'real Indian classical music. Most others like Mark Deutch are 'Indian inspired'. Also nice but not the direction I want to go.