High pass filter : frequency?

[lomo]

Did I call you or anyone else a 'bellend' ?
No? Then there was absolutely no reason for you to do so. It says an awful lot about you mate.

You did not use the word "bellend", but your overall message was that setting an HPF above the fundamental is idiotic. The unavoidable implication is that those who do so are fools. That is most certainly how it came across, not only to Phil but apparently to a number of others, including me. It's a web forum; posts can easily come across as arrogant and aggressive, whether intended or not. If you had posted something along the lines of..."it seems to me that cutting abruptly at X frequency isn't a good idea because XYZ.....instead I much prefer ABC because"... no one would have reacted defensively. It's not molecular physics, just common courtesy, which is often lost in the cyber world (and sadly in most of the rest of the world as well). Best regards from Montreal, eh.

 

[J.Wolf]

The problem is when we say things like "this thing you do, that works for you and youre enjoying pleasing from is not only patently incorrect, it speaks to your level of intelligence and degree of knowledge" which could SO easily be said as "in my experience as X, I have found this to be unnecessary and have had much better luck dealing with this issue by doing Y. "

And then if you really want to be respectful, you can say "But of course, everyones experiences and situations are their own, and YMMV".

Sorry if you dont like being called out for being unkind or rude on a forum where there is a target culture of kindness and respect, even in disagreement. the goal is to help each other, not be right at others expense. Discourse away!

 

[dave_anderson]

You did not use the word "bellend", but your overall message was that setting an HPF above the fundamental is idiotic. The unavoidable implication is that those who do so are fools. That is most certainly how it came across, not only to Phil but apparently to a number of others, including me. It's a web forum; posts can easily come across as arrogant and aggressive, whether intended or not. If you had posted something along the lines of..."it seems to me that cutting abruptly at X frequency isn't a good idea because XYZ.....instead I much prefer ABC because"... no one would have reacted defensively. It's not molecular physics, just common courtesy, which is often lost in the cyber world (and sadly in most of the rest of the world as well). Best regards from Montreal, eh.

Really? Using terms like 'I don't understand why' and you Think that implies I'm calling people idiots. Baffling. Not once did I call anyone 'idiotic' nor imply stupidity. Good open debate must be had by all on here eh?
What is really meant by the resentment is, you wanted me to agree with the echo chamber even if I don't agree?
Seems even stranger than the use of an HPF above low fundamentals.

 

[dave_anderson]

The problem is when we say things like "this thing you do, that works for you and youre enjoying pleasing from is not only patently incorrect, it speaks to your level of intelligence and degree of knowledge" which could SO easily be said as "in my experience as X, I have found this to be unnecessary and have had much better luck dealing with this issue by doing Y. "

And then if you really want to be respectful, you can say "But of course, everyones experiences and situations are their own, and YMMV".

Sorry if you dont like being called out for being unkind or rude on a forum where there is a target culture of kindness and respect, even in disagreement. the goal is to help each other, not be right at others expense. Discourse away!

I doesn't bother me if I'm 'called out for being unkind or rude' however it seems I've offended some very fragile egos for daring to provide a difference of opinion on a forum. That's just very strange. Sorry

 

[DrThumpenstein]

1: Playing in bars or venues, it's the engineer who will deal with your signal. Why would you send the FOH a sh1t bass and fundamental light signal?? I also talked about treating your own home studios or rehearsal spaces.

2: Amp manufacturers have been putting gimmicks on equipment since the industry began. Some are usable and some Are not. I'm sure there's hundreds of examples. Many people rush to buy because of them and that's why they're there, market appeal. Bass players are suckers for gimmicks and I include myself in that. One of the worst in my opinion is onboard compression with a signal control knob. Almost as silly as an HPF on a bass amp.
HPF on desks are there not to remove fundamentals on a bass channel but things on signals that are unwanted like plosives, bass or kick spill etc on a vocal channel. A VHPF is more 'usable' but again in my experience and opinion is using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. It's a cheap way of solving one issue while creating another. A parametric EQ would be far better solution or a sweepable notch filter which would enable you to remove rogue frequencies without taking everything else out below it. This is why FOH still use graphics in racks or now across a mix bus in a digital situation to tune their room.
I also mentioned Gramma pads. These require absolutely no modification to any space but help isolate a cab or amp from the structure. Not 100% solution but they can help greatly.

1. That kind of statement really undermines your credibility with the majority of gigging bassists on this forum. A huge number of us are playing in bands and venues that have NO dedicated sound person, much less one qualified to be called an engineer. And not only is it uncommon to have a dedicated sound person, it's even less common to come across one who really knows what they are doing.

But what is more irksome is your derisive statement that using a HPF is synonymous with "a sh1t bass and fundamental light signal". I send the signal that I wish to have amplified by the PA, and adjust accordingly to the room. There's plenty of fundamental and lower harmonics. Your dismissive allegation that what I'm sending is somehow feculent is just another of the reasons some here may have regrettably compared you to an arrogant phallus.

I get compliments on tone after most of our gigs, including by other bassists and active musicians, and I always have the HPF engaged to some degree. While an experienced player might find your advice to avoid the HPF easy to ignore, the poster who started the thread may not, so your bad advice should not go unchallenged.

2. I and quite a few other contributors have described in pretty thorough detail how helpful an adjustable HPF can be, with specific examples of ways that they can be useful. Yet, you continue to deride the HPF and accuse those of us who use them as suckers for gimmicks. Isolation pads only help with 1 of many reasons that amplification of low frequencies can be challenging in the environments that we face; an adjustable HPF can help with several.

It's all about the final output, how the band sounds in the mix in that particular space. An HPF in the signal chain is a key tool in reigning in troublesome bass frequencies, especially the ones that stress drivers and rob power without contributing to what we want people to hear. If it's not a useful tool to you, great. But it's useful to a lot of us, and this thread shows lots of good reasons for that.

 

[J.Wolf]

Dave, you've been in the business for 35 years, and somehow your statements are factually inaccurate and seriously missing the needs and experiences of countless bassists, engineers, amp designers and soundmen, and "you're going about this the wrong way".

But that's just my opinion, and if sharing my daring opinion offends your "fragile ego" then thats very strange.

See?? doesnt really feel helpful, positive, or designed to do much but make me feel superior.

 

[dave_anderson]

1. That kind of statement really undermines your credibility with the majority of gigging bassists on this forum. A huge number of us are playing in bands and venues that have NO dedicated sound person, much less one qualified to be called an engineer. And not only is it uncommon to have a dedicated sound person, it's even less common to come across one who really knows what they are doing.

But what is more irksome is your derisive statement that using a HPF is synonymous with "a sh1t bass and fundamental light signal". I send the signal that I wish to have amplified by the PA, and adjust accordingly to the room. There's plenty of fundamental and lower harmonics. Your dismissive allegation that what I'm sending is somehow feculent is just another of the reasons some here may have regrettably compared you to an arrogant phallus.

I get compliments on tone after most of our gigs, including by other bassists and active musicians, and I always have the HPF engaged to some degree. While an experienced player might find your advice to avoid the HPF easy to ignore, the poster who started the thread may not, so your bad advice should not go unchallenged.

2. I and quite a few other contributors have described in pretty thorough detail how helpful an adjustable HPF can be, with specific examples of ways that they can be useful. Yet, you continue to deride the HPF and accuse those of us who use them as suckers for gimmicks. Isolation pads only help with 1 of many reasons that amplification of low frequencies can be challenging in the environments that we face; an adjustable HPF can help with several.

It's all about the final output, how the band sounds in the mix in that particular space. An HPF in the signal chain is a key tool in reigning in troublesome bass frequencies, especially the ones that stress drivers and rob power without contributing to what we want people to hear. If it's not a useful tool to you, great. But it's useful to a lot of us, and this thread shows lots of good reasons for that.

1: 'Engineer' or band member that operates the desk, we're talking semantics here aren't we?

2: Great, it works for you. That's fine. Doesn't work for me and the Physics don't make sense as I've explained. But again I'm happy you're happy. Enjoy.

ps. Notice how I didn't insult you? I don't need you to validate my 'credibility' and my Feelings aren't hurt by you doing so. I'm not sure why everyone is so upset by me providing an alternative viewpoint, facts and solutions. It's not compulsory participation. Just crack on with what you're doing and enjoy.

 

[djmay]

At the annual family reunion of my wife's family, they always sing "It's Hard To Be Humble When You're Perfect In Every Way."

 

[dave_anderson]

At the annual family reunion of my wife's family, they always sing "It's Hard To Be Humble When You're Perfect In Every Way."

If that's aimed at me, I'm not perfect, just clarifying and backing my opinion and experience with facts. Until someone provides evidence to the contrary, I'll stick with the physics.

 

[31HZ]

... I would also like to add that a HPF is NOT the right tool for fixing issues with boomy, standing waves in rooms. This seems to be a very common misconception.

100% agree, it's the biggest problem with sounding good and HPF is not the best fix (and I run one around 40Hz). See my sig, ha.

FWIW, I prefer to use my Empress Para Eq for fixing room boom. That pedal has a notch setting with a super narrow Q. You can find the low note that has the most boom/room excitement by: set a narrow q, add a ton of gain to the low band, and sweep to hear which frequency is exciting the room the most, and then cut that frequency by a few db at a narrow q. To me, that cleans up the low end better than a shelving HPF. In some really bad rooms, I still use an HPF, but in most reasonable rooms, this works better for me.

While Im at it, I usually do the same trick with the mid band to find and remove any ugly mid/upper mid gank, and add a little wide Q upper treble "air" to the sound. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's almost like a quasi mastered bass tone, with 30 seconds of EQ work.

This is *exactly* how I do it (except that sometimes I *add* gank because it helps in the mix); it's easy as pie and makes you one of those guys that always sounds good; artists/BLs seem to love that.

Having been a working musician for about 35 years, studio and live Engineer for 30 years, an acoustician for 25 years I think I'm more than qualified and experienced to reiterate my comments. You are going about this the wrong way. If you don't know how to EQ a rig or instrument for a room, removing fundamentals and bottom end from your signal does not solve the problem.
Let me give you an analogy of that 'solution'
'I've got an itchy foot, ok I'll cut my leg off. Problem solved!'

@dave_anderson interestingly I think that you are saying basically the same thing that @J.Wolf and @S.F.Sorrow are, but your tone is a bit combative. I mean for this to be helpful.

 

[agedhorse]

Bass players are suckers for gimmicks and I include myself in that. One of the worst in my opinion is onboard compression with a signal control knob. Almost as silly as an HPF on a bass amp.

I think this is the sort of thing that most here object to, calling bass players suckers, and HPF's silly. IMO, that's pretty disrespectful to the bass player community as a whole.

HPF on desks are there not to remove fundamentals on a bass channel but things on signals that are unwanted like plosives, bass or kick spill etc on a vocal channel. A VHPF is more 'usable' but again in my experience and opinion is using a sledge hammer to crack a nut. It's a cheap way of solving one issue while creating another. A parametric EQ would be far better solution or a sweepable notch filter which would enable you to remove rogue frequencies without taking everything else out below it. This is why FOH still use graphics in racks or now across a mix bus in a digital situation to tune their room.

Here's where YOUR disconnect is. HPF's (specifically variable HPF's) are a multi-use tool, some players use them to help protect their speakers, some players use them to remove LF information that is not pleasing to them or contains too much non-musical content, some use them for tone shaping for a particular tone that they are going after. These may not be YOUR needs, but they may very well be other player's needs that they find useful in achieving their goals.

Again, I'm not saying that a HPF is a stupid idea, it isn't. Still, I also believe, thanks to my experience, that musicians on average are not very technically knowledgeable and telling them to do things to protect their own equipment can easily backfire (since they don't really know what they're doing). Take for instance somebody sticking an HPF "around 60Hz" because "it protects speakers from overexcursion". Then he/she finds the sound to be too thin and he boosts the bass from his amp, more than they might need without an HPF because "they're protected". That's why I said, musicians should focus on using HPFs for their tone and not as a protection.

Ok, then why is it bad for one player (or amp designer) to choose say a 30Hz HPF to protect their speakers, and another who prefers 60hz because that's the tone they are going after, and will also protect their speakers? There's no reason why it can't be both, and it can be said without selling players short too.

 

[dave_anderson]

I think this is the sort of thing that most here object to, calling bass players suckers, and HPF's silly. IMO, that's pretty disrespectful to the bass player community as a whole.

Im including myself in that description. It's self deprecation? We all are. We all have gas which is irrational. We are all into gimmicks and the latest tech/item. Magpies looking for the latest shiny addition to our equipment collection.
Never Mind. Agree to disagree.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

HPF's (specifically variable HPF's) are a multi-use tool, some players use them to help protect their speakers, some players use them to remove LF information that is not pleasing to them or contains too much non-musical content, some use them for tone shaping for a particular tone that they are going after.

Agree.

To which I would add that double bass players use them regularly to filter out low frequency information that the string length and body size of their instruments are too small to reproduce acoustically, but which pickups amplify anyway because they only sense vibrations. In the DB world, the most common use of the HPF is to make the amplified sound more like the unamplified sound, only louder.

 

[Joe Lonsdale]

BTW - If you listen to the fundamental bass notes as sine waves you might be surprised how little program material is contained there. Even first order harmonics are not that strong. 2nd order is where bass starts to really shine. Please, any tech types feel free to correct me and clarify, just don't launch any attacks!

The Bar Band Bassman

If you roll off the lows up to the second harmonic, perhaps 80 Hz or so, you'll soon hear why they are important!

 

[Liam Wald]

I just read this whole thread and while the first two-thirds of it were pretty informative, I found it interesting how it devolved toward the end as fragile ego's started feeling little bumps and bruises.But that seems to often be the case on internet forums. Talk Bass is no exception.

 

[Ritter667]

Dee-pends on the room and your speakers and volume. Start where you are and adjust higher and lower until it sounds better or worse.
In my room at this moment it's 65 Hz (approx) so the best setting is 65 +/- 1 Hz.

You clearly mean "Deep-ends".

 

[SteveLo42]

Hi!

I'm curious about HPF and lots of people seem to use them. I've got a simple question : from which frequency and below are you setting your HPF?

I've got a device with a low cut switch set at 70 Hz. It felt high, but am I wrong? At which frequency should I start?

Just plug into the amp and let bygones be bygones

 

[Ritter667]

I usually start at around 200Hz, the trick here is that the soundman will think it's a guitar and turn it up in the mix, then when the soundcheck is done you turn it back down to 40Hz....

Win!

No more bass buried in the mix!

 

[Ritter667]

BTW - If you listen to the fundamental bass notes as sine waves you might be surprised how little program material is contained there. Even first order harmonics are not that strong. 2nd order is where bass starts to really shine. Please, any tech types feel free to correct me and clarify, just don't launch any attacks!

The Bar Band Bassman

So what you are saying is that bass is a scam, and we might as well play guitar instead?

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

So what you are saying is that bass is a scam, and we might as well play guitar instead?

Well, they keep invading our territory more and more! So, no! Hold your ground, people! This means war! We may be outnumbered but we have the superior groovulation and wattage!

BBB