What out there is significantly louder than 4 K12's? Could be active or passive. 100 hz up. Depth of field or throw is important...
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highest SPL tops out there?
- Thread starter 4Mal
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OTOH K12's are pretty loud, what are you trying to do where two pairs aren't enough?
OTOH K12's are pretty loud, what are you trying to do where two pairs aren't enough?
I'm thinking back to some of the EAW and similar pre line array designs. Clusters of boxes of smallish drivers. traps that will close pack. maybe Genie liftable...
but updated...
there seem to be many choices (expensive choices) in the low end line array arena. what I find most troubling is the lack of software... I think that means point and shoot to get the delay settings right...
My reading on the topic seems to indicate that there is a level of complexity involved in the setup of an LA system that I probably can't afford to embrace...
but updated...
there seem to be many choices (expensive choices) in the low end line array arena. what I find most troubling is the lack of software... I think that means point and shoot to get the delay settings right...
My reading on the topic seems to indicate that there is a level of complexity involved in the setup of an LA system that I probably can't afford to embrace...
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so a gig that needs a bigger PA than you have, but without the budget to rent a bigger PA than you have?
funny how somebody else's bad planning always becomes the soundguy's problem...
Not really. This is more me thinking about how to scale up to the largest gig's in my area... And then begin expanding the area...
Scale up your band's PA, or are you running a sound company? If the former - gotta be someone who you could hire it out to.
The RCF top I linked to can do 93.3 db peak at 1000' - and still work for smaller gigs. The alternative would be the old school three traps per side, amp racks, big truck/trailer, etc. RCF makes some pretty kickarse powered 2x18's too. Make sure you can get the RCF's high enough and you might need front fills too (K12's or smaller are good for that).
How big an area do you need to cover and is it dedicated seating or are folks doing other stuff towards the back (vendors, etc)? I've been able to do family friendly SPL's for 1000 people with just a pair of RCF 310A's with a couple 2x18 equivalents center clustered - but the tops were solidly in the red and need to be disassembled and tightened after a couple of those LOL.
How big an area do you need to cover and is it dedicated seating or are folks doing other stuff towards the back (vendors, etc)? I've been able to do family friendly SPL's for 1000 people with just a pair of RCF 310A's with a couple 2x18 equivalents center clustered - but the tops were solidly in the red and need to be disassembled and tightened after a couple of those LOL.
Sound co...
Have 16 foot box truck plus 12 foot trailer (for staging). Amp racks... No problem... 1 venue is deep and narrow, 250 foot throw. About 500 people in seats plus dance lawn. very high spl requirements. Guy doing that one now has 6 double 18's, db technologies dv8's plus the flown 15" sub woofers.
One is around 500' but wide. People on blankets or lawn chairs. Park setting. Mostly regional or low end touring rock bands. Guy doing that one uses 4 double 15 subs and 4 bfm tops. Not a good sounding system but it does move some air. Not sure if it's the tops or what. A very harsh sound.
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Simple answer: 8 K12s 
Serious answer: Go look at similar venues and see what is being used. Listen to them and go with what sounds best.
Serious answer: Go look at similar venues and see what is being used. Listen to them and go with what sounds best.
Line arrays need stacking/flying hardware and possibly lifts. Trap cabs are a whole lot easier to deploy (just stack 3 or 6 on top of your subs) - but older ones are stoopid heavy (good in that they can be had cheap). Most "line arrays" are fake, not enough cabs in each hang to get the line array effect and often even lack an adjustable angle between them. However clients like their looks 
.
OTOH one of RCF's I linked is probably as loud as 4 K12's. Do you have any idea as to how "short" on db's you are now? And what is your present crossover frequency? I tend to do 125Hz as it steers the kick's "thump" more into the subs than the mains which frees up another 3-6db of SPL from the mains. And as I run aux driven subs the higher HPF on the vocals gets rid of that woofy cheap bar band sound
. More/bigger subs are easier than more/bigger tops in that they don't need to be raised above the audience's heads and are generally cheaper per db in the critical 75-125Hz region.
Oh, and BTW how high do you get your K12's? Some folks have the silly idea that you only have to get the horns above people's heads. IME the average tripod when fully extended is barely OK unless it's on a raised stage. Height is how you get "throw".
I actually used a cheap pair of B208D's as tops for the first time last gig and they did earplugs volume in a 50x50 room no prob. I've used them without subs before for low volume full band affairs like receptions and private parties - I think they sounded quite a bit better without the lows fed to them. There was a metal show upstairs in the big hall and the few that drifted downstairs said my PA sounded quite a bit better than what they had LOL.
Oh and one last - the main cause I've seen of weak K cabs is some folks freak out if the limit lights flicker the least bit and turn them down - you're giving up 3-6db right there. I try to keep then below 50% on. My poor 310a's mentioned in a previous post have seen 100% a few times
.
.OTOH one of RCF's I linked is probably as loud as 4 K12's. Do you have any idea as to how "short" on db's you are now? And what is your present crossover frequency? I tend to do 125Hz as it steers the kick's "thump" more into the subs than the mains which frees up another 3-6db of SPL from the mains. And as I run aux driven subs the higher HPF on the vocals gets rid of that woofy cheap bar band sound
. More/bigger subs are easier than more/bigger tops in that they don't need to be raised above the audience's heads and are generally cheaper per db in the critical 75-125Hz region.Oh, and BTW how high do you get your K12's? Some folks have the silly idea that you only have to get the horns above people's heads
. IME the average tripod when fully extended is barely OK unless it's on a raised stage. Height is how you get "throw".I actually used a cheap pair of B208D's as tops for the first time last gig and they did earplugs volume in a 50x50 room no prob. I've used them without subs before for low volume full band affairs like receptions and private parties - I think they sounded quite a bit better without the lows fed to them. There was a metal show upstairs in the big hall and the few that drifted downstairs said my PA sounded quite a bit better than what they had LOL.
Oh and one last - the main cause I've seen of weak K cabs is some folks freak out if the limit lights flicker the least bit and turn them down - you're giving up 3-6db right there. I try to keep then below 50% on. My poor 310a's mentioned in a previous post have seen 100% a few times
.
Start looking at Line array tops
They stack better
I've been looking at Line array tops... Not impressed by the kla-12. Which is saying something given that I'm a big QSC fan... been looking more a coup,e of steps up the food chain . Nexo, db Technologies. To properly deploy that stuff takes a level of sophistication I don't posess, can't afford at this point.
Line arrays need stacking/flying hardware and possibly lifts. Trap cabs are a whole lot easier to deploy (just stack 3 or 6 on top of your subs) - but older ones are stoopid heavy (good in that they can be had cheap). Most "line arrays" are fake, not enough cabs in each hang to get the line array effect and often even lack an adjustable angle between them. However clients like their looks
OTOH one of RCF's I linked is probably as loud as 4 K12's. Do you have any idea as to how "short" on db's you are now? And what is your present crossover frequency? I tend to do 125Hz as it steers the kick's "thump" more into the subs than the mains which frees up another 3-6db of SPL from the mains. And as I run aux driven subs the higher HPF on the vocals gets rid of that woofy cheap bar band sound
RCF 134db
k12 131 db
IIRC that means noticible but not massive and seeing as I can already deploy 4 K12's from current inventory (6 if I ciponfigure a stage with oassive monitors). Not a huge step it seems to me...
I also do Aux fed subs and make judicious use of hpf's channel to channel. I like my lows clear, clean, punchy and not flabby...
Oh, and BTW how high do you get your K12's? Some folks have the silly idea that you only have to get the horns above people's heads
I have two sets of the tallest poles from ultimate support. I forget how high those are. Looking at lifts and rentals now... In my dreams there is a set of Global ST180's and 40' of 12" truss on the truck... That truss system is rentable with significant pain. 3 hr round trip in the truck and the rental fees. It's a 3.5k buy plus fly hardware... My first itteration will likely w/o the truss...
I actually used a cheap pair of B208D's as tops for the first time last gig and they did earplugs volume in a 50x50 room no prob. I've used them without subs before for low volume full band affairs like receptions and private parties - I think they sounded quite a bit better without the lows fed to them. There was a metal show upstairs in the big hall and the few that drifted downstairs said my PA sounded quite a bit better than what they had LOL.
Oh and one last - the main cause I've seen of weak K cabs is some folks freak out if the limit lights flicker the least bit and turn them down - you're giving up 3-6db right there. I try to keep then below 50% on. My poor 310a's mentioned in a previous post have seen 100% a few times
Maybe in someone else's hands the BFM stuff would be better but every time I hear them - I find them very loud but very harsh. Seems like the frequency respone is really ragged in the upper mids ...at least for the systems I've heard deployed, I couldn't live with the audio quality.
My PAS stuff sounds very hifi. Super smooth crossovers. Lots of time with SMAART to get them that way. We tested the KW-181 amd K-12 setup with SMAART and other than a slight bump at 100, we didn't need to adjust anything. Their DSP os pretty darned good.
I am 'one of those guys'. Who does not want 'horn'. I want a restrained hi end. I tend to start rolling off at 10k and am gone about 16. I'm happy with a SDC on a hi-hat for metal or reggae. I just don't want it to hurt people.
The BFM system I've heard used banks of piezo tweters. Simply brutal.
I'm also pretty much done with DIY cabs... Time is too limited but I apprecite the suggestion anyway. Those things do move a ton of air.
My PAS stuff sounds very hifi. Super smooth crossovers. Lots of time with SMAART to get them that way. We tested the KW-181 amd K-12 setup with SMAART and other than a slight bump at 100, we didn't need to adjust anything. Their DSP os pretty darned good.
I am 'one of those guys'. Who does not want 'horn'. I want a restrained hi end. I tend to start rolling off at 10k and am gone about 16. I'm happy with a SDC on a hi-hat for metal or reggae. I just don't want it to hurt people.
The BFM system I've heard used banks of piezo tweters. Simply brutal.
I'm also pretty much done with DIY cabs... Time is too limited but I apprecite the suggestion anyway. Those things do move a ton of air.
Unfortunately it's hard to compare numbers from different vendors - I suspect the K12 is "peak" and the RCF "real" so more like 140 vs 131 (or 134 vs 125). My little RCF 310a's are rated at 127db and seem louder (and better sounding) than K12's to me. You might get RCF America to loan you a demo if you can convince them you're a serious buyer.
+1 on the RCF
Better than QSC IMHO
If you have the budget , I would check L'Acoustic
Products - ARCS II - L-ACOUSTICS
ARCS sries are Medium throw
Have to get the LA4X or LA8 Power amp with it.
(can work without but soooooooooooo much better with)
Or the 112p wich is active
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it's written 131db max but it destroys a K12 (power/quality/dispertion)
Better than QSC IMHO
If you have the budget , I would check L'Acoustic
Products - ARCS II - L-ACOUSTICS
ARCS sries are Medium throw
Have to get the LA4X or LA8 Power amp with it.
(can work without but soooooooooooo much better with)
Or the 112p wich is active
Link Removed
it's written 131db max but it destroys a K12 (power/quality/dispertion)
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^ Yes, unfortunately if you want lighter stuff to do big shows you have to look at the premium brands that you can't get at Banjo Center . You'd be better off hanging out at the pro audio forum for info:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
There are folks there that might be able to hook you up with demos and such.
. You'd be better off hanging out at the pro audio forum for info:[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
There are folks there that might be able to hook you up with demos and such.
those piezo banks don't abide clipping mic preamps. One little orange light turns to arse.
Out of the box all horns need a good bit of compensatory EQ to even out the hot spots. The best place for that is a preset on digital power amps or rack controller.
