How accurate is amp modeling, and....

[Omega Monkey]

They're reasonably accurate, and they have their uses, but I don't at all care for the lazy "I show up with this $1500 digital gizmo and that is my entire sound for the gig" trend we've seen lately. I think they work best if you don't try to give them too many layers to model, ie run through a real power amp and bass cab on stage. Air is what makes sound sound good. You take away all the air and the sound gets less good (unless you're going for certain specific types of sounds, or are using high end studio gear, etc...).

And there are great amps these days that way 15 pounds or less. Hardly a burden to carry to a gig. Get a nice 2x12 for another 45-50 pounds or so. NOW, you can add something like a helix in the fx loop, and use it for effects modeling, which it is much better at than amp modeling, and be able to have all sorts of different presets at the push of a button. That's definitely handy (although I really like my analog pedals like my Octabvre, Q_Tron, Compressore, Hoof Fuzz, etc...

 

[HolmeBass]

Tony Levin used a Kemper with King Crimson when I saw them last year. Everyone was ampless, even Fripp, although he had significantly more processing than just a Kemper, and I don’t think he had a Kemper. The other guitarist/singer and Tony did use Kempers, and Tony just had different patches for his EUB, stick, and Stingray. I was a bit bummed that the Stingray patch was the quitest. But they all sounded great, in particular his EUB.

The last time I saw Zappa Plays Zappa Dweezil was using the current Fractal modeler through four QSC K12s (or whatever their highest end monitor/PA self-contained unit’s are) and he sounded amazing and had complete touch response and feedback control. He even played a song using a Strat with a patch specifically set up to allow controlled feedback depending on far he turned toward the speakers. They had marked a spot for him to stand so that he was in the exact right spot and that was really cool - just like Hendrix turning towards his Marshall stack to induce feedback, except Dweezil had perfect control without ear-splitting volume. The tones of his different guitars came through perfectly; his tone overall was stellar.

The high-end modeling stuff is the real deal. It’s only going to get better and cheaper over time as they recover their software engineering costs and processing power keeps getting cheaper and cheaper. Another place where Moore’s Law is good for us.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Sound:

Feel/response:

Basically, I think they sound good but I hate playing them. Especially fingerstyle where response is most important. Just my personal opinion of course (and I'm a total tube amp fanatic).

 

[92aceshigh]

Sound:

Feel/response:

Basically, I think they sound good but I hate playing them. Especially fingerstyle where response is most important. Just my personal opinion of course (and I'm a total tube amp fanatic).

I find mixing the best of both worlds gets the best results. Modeller/D.I. for your FOH/IEM sound, then an amp and small, efficient cab onstage so you can still feel some air moving.

 

[Greg Waldon]

I have a Peavey Vypyr 1 modeling amp and it has a great sound but only 20 watts. Just using it around the house it is great

 

[rashrader]

Heck, most bass players that I hear live can’t nail one good tone... I can’t imagine the disaster that modeling amps would bring to the equation.

 

[brianrost]

My take on modelers is simple: just ignore the amp names and images. If you expect it to sound just like the amp it's purported to model you will likely be disappointed. Instead try each of the amp and cab models out you will probably find a few combinations that work for you.

I had a Boss multitrack recorder with COSM amp models. The one I liked best for bass? The "Twin Reverb"! The bass models all sounded like someone had tossed a blanket over the speakers. I've used the amp models in Logic and Ableton Live, they work OK but again I ignore the names and graphics and use my ears instead. I've also used Sansamps, H&K Red Boxes (speaker emulator), various multiFX with amp models, blah, blah... They all work, which one works best for you is trial and error.

 

[GrapeBass]

IME/O Modelers are MEH. While they do approximate (ball park-ish), when directly compared to the real deal, the nuances and feel are way off (especially feel).

 

[Muyy]

I’ve got a Kemper and it’s the only one so far I’ve really got to dig into. Whoever says it doesn’t sound like the real thing is just never going to be satisfied because they can’t even describe the real thing. I even fell victim to this. I used a tone hammer profile but I didn’t like the way it was sounding and said it wasn’t like the real thing. Took out my tonehammer to profile my own, and it sounded exactly the same as the previous profile. Brains are tricky things but the kemper is about as accurate as you can get. The effects are good but not great since they’re mostly for guitar but the standards are there and it usually makes me not bring any pedalboard other than the kemper remote. Plus, sound guys love me, my rig is light, and it doubles as a wired in ear rig.

 

[seamonkey]

Positive Grid has some profiling options also. They also have an analyzer for audio tracks to suggest how to duplicate a sound. There was a story of a player who was doing a followup album to one recorded many years ago but he couldn't remember what he used. It happens. He used the Positive Grid software to reverse engineer a track to figure out how to recreated it.

What I don't like is their 1 year warranty on their hardware.
They are actually great of support and upgrades for the software, but 1 year on hardware does not give me a lot of confidence.

 

[DJ Bebop]

The market is too small. Too many bassists going DI and content to be thump thump thump thump.

Or for this old man and, I know I'm alone on this and old, but, while all of bass-dom craves the Ampeg tone B15 or
SVT overdrive sound. As a kid starting out I was using my dad's B15N. I was using it in rock bands and couldn't keep up with half stacks.
I hated the fact that I was always distorted. I ran as fast as I could from that.

My deal was and is, high power, no distortion high fi studio monitor sound live on stage.
I get that the Ampeg sound IS the boutique guitar amp of bass and, I'll even us some distortion as an effect but,
wanting that all da time, not for me.

Btw I still have my dad's B15 and us it in low volume situations.

You kids and your dang fangled distortion and grind!!!

PS Having said all that. I do have an old Zoom B1xon and use the B15 model Flip Top
that I set up A/B ing my B15 and have a patch that satisfies me

 

[Fender_Bender]

I have a Roland cube bass 120 xl and it has built in modelling for “ flip top, TE, B man, 8x10 etc. I leave it on the 8x10 setting and if there is any lag at all I guess I’ve just gotten used to it. It also has built in effects like chorus, reverb etc. I really don’t use those except for a bit of the onboard compressor.

 

[Btbp]

Good to see all the replies.

Can't understand why another thread I started isn't getting any, I thought it would be a popular topic, and, I do want an answer to my original post there, maybe some from this thread will find it useful.
What effect was used to get that sound?

 

[bucephylus]

I find the profiling/modeling to be interesting. But, my only hesitation is I’m not sure why I would go there when I’m perfectly satisfied with my simpler basic bass amp.

Also, I get it that the Kempers and such are probably most interesting for ampless backlines, where you want to send a bit more sophisticated signal to the board. Here’s what I’m using for that soundstage, and perfectly happy with the result. I send the full preamp signal to the board, and find it to be dead center useful tone.

Not feeling a whole lot of motivation to do more than that. Still, I get why others would go for the profiler/modeler. YMMV

 

[cableguy]

As a former owner of a Fractal AX8. I found there was one huge problem with getting a great sound........Me. I got a pretty good sound but could never get that last 5%. Why? Let's just file it under old dog/new tricks. I found I just didn't have the time needed to properly use the AX8. With job, family and bands, I just didn't. My 1st video game was Pong, that tells you everything you need to know. If you're a more computer savvy person who has time to commit, the Fractal stuff is amazing. If you're an old Analog dog like me, stay in your lane.....

 

[DJ Bebop]

I find the profiling/modeling to be interesting. But, my only hesitation is I’m not sure why I would go there when I’m perfectly satisfied with my simpler basic bass amp.

Also, I get it that the Kempers and such are probably most interesting for ampless backlines, where you want to send a bit more sophisticated signal to the board. Here’s what I’m using for that soundstage, and perfectly happy with the result. I send the full preamp signal to the board, and find it to be dead center useful tone.
View attachment 3425941

Not feeling a whole lot of motivation to do more than that. Still, I get why others would go for the profiler/modeler. YMMV

Da Kine Brah! 'Ono!

 

[S-Bigbottom]

and why is this not as popular for bass as it is for guitar?

It does not take much to replicate the Bass into DI box sound and Bass into a real DI Box is cheaper.

 

[MVE]

Guys, I think most of you are misunderstanding the actual concept.
Its not about “modeling”.
Its about A/D/A based Amps. Wherein our analog signal is converted to digital, processed through a computer and then back to analog, before being amplified.
And it is the future of guitar and bass amps.
There doesn’t have to be any “modeling” of other amps.
Its just a matter of software based processing of a digital waveform vs using circuits to change an a/c voltage audio signal.
The Bergantino B-amp does this already and does it very well.
Personally, Im dreaming of an “Amp” from UA that would let me plug in my bass, run 3-4 of my favorite DAW plugins, and then send it out to a 1200 watt class D amp. How awesome would it be to have my bass through a Pultec eq, and a Fairchild comp???

 

[bucephylus]

Da Kine Brah! 'Ono!

Fo' Shua!

 

[DJ Bebop]

Guys, I think most of you are misunderstanding the actual concept.
Its not about “modeling”.
Its about A/D/A based Amps. Wherein our analog signal is converted to digital, processed through a computer and then back to analog, before being amplified.
And it is the future of guitar and bass amps.
There doesn’t have to be any “modeling” of other amps.
Its just a matter of software based processing of a digital waveform vs using circuits to change an a/c voltage audio signal.
The Bergantino B-amp does this already and does it very well.
Personally, Im dreaming of an “Amp” from UA that would let me plug in my bass, run 3-4 of my favorite DAW plugins, and then send it out to a 1200 watt class D amp. How awesome would it be to have my bass through a Pultec eq, and a Fairchild comp???

I kinda do that now. I use a high power set up with a full range bi-amped speaker affair and run whatever
modeling gismo modeling mostly comp, limiter, and effect pedals. once in a while an amp model.
I think of the modeling box more as plug-ins.

I remember John Mclaughlin Invalid Link Removed years and years before stand-alone modeling or even talk of using it live. Running his guitar through a laptop running DAW patches straight into the PA and monitors. The man known for loud Marshall amps using just a laptop on stage, revolutionary!