How accurate is amp modeling, and....

[Btbp]

The full title is - How accurate is amp modeling, and why is this not as popular for bass as it is for guitar?

Just looking at a Sweetwater catalog with pages of Line 6 and Helix and other higher-end gear dedicated to modeling, and seeing little to none for bass makes me wonder.

Plus, having an amp sim in a Sansamp is one thing, but surely not as elaborate as the modeling in a Helix, for example.

I am mostly just curious about these things.

 

[seamonkey]

The modelers do 100% of the golden designs the modeling manufacturer wants to design.

Some "modelers" are just the analog pre-amp part of a head stuck in a box.
Others include assortments of gear.

The confusions come up because the modeler makes use "Golden reference" versions of the hardware to which some say "It doesn't sound like mine". With +- 15% component difference in hardware there's a lot of wiggle room. In some high end cases the original hardware manufacturer, and original engineers are involved in the modelers. At least the listening and functional parts. The original manufacturer puts their name on the models in these kinds of offerings.

At the same time there are many modelers that don't get the endorsement from the original manufacturers. These may be more off track from the originals. Still a lot of "original" hardware gets modded over the years with hacks, new caps, ... and doesn't sound like the factory original but these may be what everyone thinks of when they hear the sound. The modded, not the original.

Modelers can go beyond as combinations of can be put together that aren't available in hardware versions. They can add in rooms, and different mics, effects, but also circuits mods.

Many of the modelers packaged in hardware are actually software based. A little computer built inside dedicated to the software. The software plugin gives the same sound and function as the hardware version.

Some my feel threatened by modeling and the technology, but it will follow onto bass. It's not a big software change to support bass if a guitar/keyboard/vocal edition already exists. No need to make modelers specific to bass only.

 

[Roland GR 88]

Modelers are successful because of the massive amount of information that can be stored inside. To appeal to guitarists you need everything from a Fender tweed to a Randall Satan and everything in between. Then there's effects which must include every iconic pedal ever made. Then there's the cab sims from 8" Harvard's to 4x12 stacks and all the rest.
By comparison, most bass players would be happy with a handful of amp/speaker combinations, a few overdrives, an envelope filter and a compressor.
I know a quite few bass players that use the Helix, Kemper or Headrush and simply set it up for the sounds they need as they are not guitar specific.

 

[lz4005]

.... why is this not as popular for bass as it is for guitar?

Because less sophisticated things like a Sansamp sound good enough for most bass applications.

 

[jshinal]

Expanding on RolandGR88's simple version,

You can take a very sophisticated modeler like a Kemper and get most any tube bass amp model you want. The amount of detail and variations/options in it's model layers is astonishing. It includes changing the B+ voltage on the tube, putting different tubes in a given amp, different loads and coupling frequencies in the circuit, different rectifiers, etc.

Get a fine model of a Fender Bassman, a Twin or a Hiwatt and start fiddling with the detailed parameters and you will get a lot of usable bass voicings. Some modelers can also load speaker "impulse" models as well, and there are a lot of detailed 3rd party impulse sources, so we can get proper bass speakers if typical EVMs and SROs aren't what you like in a bass model.

What we don't have is a lot of preset, preconfigured, "canned" high-end modeling stuff for bass. But the good stuff will work fine for bassists, you just need to put in a few weeks of work really learning how to adjust the models for your ear.

 

[lokikallas]

have you not seen the line 6 and zoom threads!?

 

[Somanytoys]

Because less sophisticated things like a Sansamp sound good enough for most bass applications.

I have to say, I recently bought a couple of sansamp pedals and a rack preamp, and I’ve been really impressed.

The dUg Pinnick pedal is great as a preamp (or just pedal, but it’s LOUD), and the VT DI with speaker emulator is pretty amazing, especially direct xlr into a PA.

I run it naked (no pedals) direct into the pa using the speaker emulator, then use the uneffected parallel out into some Jext Telez pedals and into an ivp preamp pedal, then into the power amp section of an Acoustic amp (receive of the effects loop). I can get an amazing range of great sounds out of both of them.

Never tried any of the others, but I really, really like the tech 21 stuff.

 

[Nebula24]

As a bedroom player, no idea how accurate but love my studio40. Flip of knob and totally different sound. More than eq controls alone when i had rumble40. And then can tweak stock sounds to my liking or download user made tones. Cheaper than buying lots of pedals too. Might not be accurate but amazed at tone it pulls out of my one trick epi eb0 pony.

 

[Downunderwonder]

The market is too small. Too many bassists going DI and content to be thump thump thump thump.

 

[mbell75]

I’m not a fan of amp modeling, it always sounds fake and digital to me. The Fender Rumble Stage amps are a perfect example of this. A profiler like a Kemper is badass though and worth every penny. I know several bands who have replaced their rigs with Kempers and it sounds fantastic.

 

[two fingers]

I'm about to buy a Helix from my guitar player. (He's getting the newest Fractal soon.)

I have borrowed it a few times for church. It's pretty dang impressive.

Lots of guys online have snapshots you can buy for a few bucks if you're not into menu diving. I am budgeting about $100 to buy a bunch when I get it. I started a thread recently about the Helix. If you dig it up you'll find a link to a one such guy who has created a few for bass.

The display is great. The buttons are nice. Everything is assignable. The tuner is even great.

I'm blown away by it. Combine it with in-ear monitors and you're all set with a gig bag and a backpack for the Helix.

 

[two fingers]

My apologies. I failed to answer your main question. It sounds fantastic. I hit a little hard so I had to back down the gain on a few presets to avoid distortion. Once I got that hammered out the presets sounded awesome.

 

[packhowitzer]

Luckily for me, I'm deaf enough that all but the crummiest of amp modelers sound accurate to my ears. Can my Zoom B3 really do an Ampeg, a GK, a Hartke, etc...? Sure! why not? It's all just pops and buzzes to me!


Now will somebody answer that D$%& phone?!?

 

[JimmyM]

How accurate? Well I've yet to want to sell my tube amps after hearing any of them but they get better and better as time goes on, and I think there's actually a chance it could happen to where they nail it. I'll probably be dead by then, but I never thought they'd get even as far as they've gotten so I have respect for it. But the reason you don't see as much with bass is because bassists generally tend to use fewer effects, most use none at all, and there are cheaper and much less complicated options for clean bass with maybe a couple of effects than a $2000 digital unit. However, would I dig having a Helix unit as an add-on to my tube amp? Damn skippy!

 

[juggahnaught]

I can't speak to it's accuracy, but I have a Helix and I think it sounds pretty good. I've had good results with biamping - setting up a Helix signal chain with a bass amp for lower frequencies and a guitar amp (like the Roland chorus) for the high end, and tailoring effects to taste.

I think it is popular for bass - we've always been more likely to DI into a board, so it's a natural fit - I think it's just that we don't end up with a lot of model options. I think that many players don't try tone combinations as much as guitarists do (they want multi-amp, stereo cab setups with crazy signal chains that many bassists don't find a need for). It's actually a bit sad, as these devices open doors for so much cool stuff. For example, I have a pizzicato patch, a cello patch, and an ambient patch on my Helix that I created for use with my bass.

Amp profilers like the Kemper probably see more use in the bass world - maybe.

 

[direwolf333]

I sold my helix. I like the stomp. It sounds real good right out of the box. Some say it sounds digital but I can't hear it. It's versatile.

 

[Dabndug]

Right now the models are pretty accurate - accurate enough that you wouldn't know the difference on a well-produced recording or a gig with good sound people.

Frankly even the first generation modelling gear produced useable bass tones - but they weren't perfect recreations of beloved amps - probably 75% of the way there. It was still a blast to have a little box that could produce 10 or more distinct amp sounds and a handful of effects rather than have to lug a truck full of gear around. Now my head spins with the huge number of options available.

 

[BurnOut]

 

[92aceshigh]

View attachment 3425752

OP, the high-end modellers (Helix, AxeFX) and profilers like the Kemper are game-changers for touring bands. But I think the reason they're not as popular with bassists is that there are is an abundance of super high-quality D.I. pedals/preamps from the likes of Darkglass, SansAmp, et al, that fill the same niche as the modellers/profilers, but in a cheaper, even smaller, form-factor.

 

[73jbass]

I was in a Pink Floyd tribute for a short time,and wound up getting. Fractal AX8,and its the best money ever spent on gear. It replaced a huge pedalboard with 13 pedals,2 power supplys, and a di box. I ran straight to the board and used IEMs. If you need a bunch of effects that are fantastic. I also have a small board with a comp,tuner,and phaser with a Palmer DI box that works well also. Used both with no amp on stage. Btw, I really dont think the amp modeling itself needs to be all that accurate. I have no idea if the SVT on my Fractal sounds like the real thing, and dont care. It does sound good, so thats what gets used.