How can I get "more me" , same old question, definitely a different situation

[poomwah]

I just got into a working band almost 2 weeks ago. I've done two shows with them so far and it looks like there are a LOT more in the future. They are happy with their sound system, I unfortunately don't share that sentiment. Lead singer, LOUD guitarist playing acoustic guitar through a GT6b straight into the board, LOUD drummer, and me on bass, everyone has mic for some amount of vocals.
There is only one monitor mix. And there's not enough of my mic in it, and my bass isn't going through the monitors at all. I can barely hear my voice in the monitor mix when I'm singing by myself. When someone else is singing as well, I can't hear my voice at all. I can barely hear my bass, and some times can't at all. I was told by a fellow musician, that I trust, that I sounded good FOH.
So. I need to come up with a solution where I can get more of my vocals, and some of my bass.
I would love to do away with my amp on stage. But since they aren't running the bass through the monitors, I have to provide my amp as a monitor for the drummer, but the sound man doesn't want me to turn it up enough for it to serve me well.
I would love to run in ear. But I can't think of a way to get everything in the mix that I want. If I tap into one of the lines being run for monitors, I won't get my bass. If I rig up something to get some of my bass through in ears, then I won't be able to hear the other musicians well.
I had thought of running my mic through this Behringer MicroMON MA400 | Sweetwater.com then out to the board and coming back from the board's monitor out back into the MA400, so I'd have control over my mic level in my monitor without effecting the main mix. But, what about the bass? Could I run the bass through one of those?
I had thought about a Rolls pm351 , and run the mic through it the same way as the MA400 idea, and then run a cable from my zoom b3 into the pm351, then xlr from their to the board... EXCEPT... then I don't have a feed for my amp. I keep coming up with partial solutions but can't come up with anything that would solve all of them.
Another, probably crazy idea, is one of these Soundcraft Ui12 Digital Mixer | Sweetwater.com
Run bass on channel one, mic on channel two, sound man's mix on channel three. Send bass and vocals to the sound guy through the aux outs, and then send the main output to a belt pack for IEM's
What do you guys think?

 

[poomwah]

would this work.......
TWO MA400's
First one : Mic in and through to board. Monitor mix from board to same MA400. That would give me a mix of the stage monitor plus my mic at the headphone out on the 1st MA400... right?
Second one : Bass in and through to the board. Headphone out from first MA400 into Monitor Input of second MA400. That would give me a mix of the above mix plus my bass....right?
And then the Headphone Out of the second MA400 into my ear buds.
I know this is not anywhere near an ideal solution, but I have to figure something out soon.

 

[praisegig]

I would run a Rolls PM 351 box mounted to your mic stand. You will gain throughput for your mic/ bass and then volume control all three into Iem's. Then get a direct box to hook up between the rolls box guitar output and FOH. Then run a cable from the direct box parallel output to the input of your amp. Adjust amp volume as necessary for monitor use. I use this setup weekly at church and during gigs as part of my equipment bag

 

[denhou1974]

You need to get your bass cab up higher. I play through a 4x10 and for the past year I've left it on the RockNRoller cart (about 8 inches higher than the floor). I had to lower the volume after doing this but I can hear all of my notes now without blowing away the dance floor. As for vocals consider getting a IEM system. Even if you only play with one earbud it'll make a difference.

Maybe they like your VOX volume where it is

 

[EastCoastThump]

I would run a Rolls PM 351 box mounted to your mic stand. You will gain throughput for your mic/ bass and then volume control all three into Iem's. Then get a direct box to hook up between the rolls box guitar output and FOH. Then run a cable from the direct box parallel output to the input of your amp. Adjust amp volume as necessary for monitor use.

This. PM 351 (or similarly functioned mini-mixer) + DI. Or, run the bass + whatever FX you want into the PM351, then run that to your stage amp, and feed FOH the bass signal via your amp's DI output. (If I were running sound and didn't know your band, I'd probably prefer to have the DI feed before the Rolls. )

If you decide use a stand-alone DI along with the Rolls, I'd run two things differently than denhou1974, though. Once you've dialed it in, I'd run the PM351 on the floor for a cleaner look. (The Rolls mic stand bracket works well, but it leaves a lot of cabling hanging off the stand. Not a big deal for a rehearsal room or very casual gig, but not a great look when stage aesthetics matter.) I'd also put the bass DI in front of the 351.

If your bass is wired, here's where a 351 on your pedalboard beats a mini-mixer: you can run a single combo instrument/IEM cable from the Rolls between your pedalboard and your bass and IEMs. (The IEM tail can go over the strap button along w/ the instrument output tail, and you plug your IEMs or buds into it as if it were a body pack.) If you're not a big FX player, you can run just a tuner, the PM351, and a DI on a micro pedalboard.

 

[4Mal]

why 1 monitor mix?
what you are trying to do sounds like a complicated band aid to a simple problem. You need more mixes, maybe better monitors, maybe a better sound guy ... 1 mix ? in 2015 ?

and then there is the volume chat. If the guitar and drums are drowning you out yet the sound guy says your amp is too loud, that is sort of unbalanced...

 

[Geri O]

My solution is a little more complicated, but it's working great for me when I'm in small situations with only one or two mixes and vocals only in the PA.

Instead of a Rolls, I use a small Alto 6-channel mixer. I made several hardwire split adapters (one female to two males). I take my vocal, my bass, and other inputs as I see fit (kick drum, drum overhead, etc. Sometimes, I bring my own kick mic and overhead mic and stands) and plug them into my little mixer, using the hardwired split adapter to send each input to both my mixer and anywhere else they want my inputs to go. Also, I get a house mix from the main mixer that has vocals in it. Now essentially, I have my own monitor mix to use with my IEMs.

Being a retired pro sound guy, it was easy for me to get this together and make it work. It's a little clumsy with the extra mic cables, but again, I can deal with it pretty easily. I can PM more details if you're interested.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I gather that your band is running its own sound. Depending on the number of channels you need, going for something like an X Air18 might become appealing. That way, the band would have more auxes, probably more flexible and powerful processing and FX, the benefits of digital mixing, and WIFI control. It's also likely to make set-up simpler, physically easier, and faster.

You could then mix your own monitor or IEM aux from your stage position using a smart phone or tablet.

 

[hrodbert696]

Seems to me this is exactly what the Rolls PM351 is designed for. You said you'd lose a feed to your amp, but all you need to do is run your bass to your amp, then either mic your amp or take a DI line from it to the Rolls and thence to the PA. Or, if you have a pedal with a parallel out/DI line, run the parallel line to the Rolls and the main line to the amp.

But yeah, I would definitely have the volume talk.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I think that looking for the perfect balance on stage is a trap, and a habit that can become really annoying to others if developed. I also think the best way (and this is just my opinion for certain) for us to deal with something like this is to learn to sing in any situation. For me that's accomplished with earplugs. With earplugs in I never need a vocal monitor for myself, my skull becomes my monitor. As for the bass, as someone else mentioned, I'd just get the cabinet closer to my head somehow. Raise it, and move it closer to me.

I once played in a band where the drummer was a complete ass when it came to bass. All he wanted to hear was himself, and he constantly got frustrated and asked me continually to turn down. At a gig one time I turned my bass down completely, and he was still freaking out, "You're too loud!!!". He was mistaking bass frequency in the guitars, for bass. Yes, I eventually quit that band, but the money was good so I dealt. How I dealt was I started putting my amp in front of the drums. He was happy. I was happy. Problem was solved.

 

[s0c9]

why 1 monitor mix?
what you are trying to do sounds like a complicated band aid to a simple problem. You need more mixes, maybe better monitors, maybe a better sound guy ... 1 mix ? in 2015 ?

and then there is the volume chat. If the guitar and drums are drowning you out yet the sound guy says your amp is too loud, that is sort of unbalanced...

agreed !!! We run 6 monitor mixes.. 2 wedges, 4 IEM's.. all from stage.
To the OP - what console is the band running... as 1 monitor mix indicates the band is not really up to speed on running sound!

 

[skwee]

My solution is a little more complicated, but it's working great for me when I'm in small situations with only one or two mixes and vocals only in the PA.

Instead of a Rolls, I use a small Alto 6-channel mixer. I made several hardwire split adapters (one female to two males). I take my vocal, my bass, and other inputs as I see fit (kick drum, drum overhead, etc. Sometimes, I bring my own kick mic and overhead mic and stands) and plug them into my little mixer, using the hardwired split adapter to send each input to both my mixer and anywhere else they want my inputs to go. Also, I get a house mix from the main mixer that has vocals in it. Now essentially, I have my own monitor mix to use with my IEMs.

Being a retired pro sound guy, it was easy for me to get this together and make it work. It's a little clumsy with the extra mic cables, but again, I can deal with it pretty easily. I can PM more details if you're interested.

I have that same little mixer, and was just thinking recently about how to use it in a live situation for monitoring. Thanks for this.

 

[morgansterne]

the zoom b3 has two 1/4 outputs plus the xlr. You can go from there into a rolls pm351 and still have an output left for your amp.

I love using IEM's so I highly recommend them, but my carvin em900 setup has not been that great (for wireless -- wired it sounds great) and I'd save up for an upgrade if I'd known then.

I used to use a submixer (allen and heath zed) in one group where I did keys, rhythm guitar and vocals. You get a main mix feed into one channel and add your own bits into the mix as needed. Then plug in your IEM to your submixer, wired or wireless. The other folks in the band didn't like not having control of my individual levels at the FOH mixer so I stopped doing things that way and just used a main board aux send.

But I'd maybe get a hot spot monitor for yourself -- it's got two XLR inputs, so plug in your zoom b3 xlr out and your mic cable into it. It's got pass through jacks to send those signals on to your main mixer. You can choose to use the existing wedge or else just monitor the other vocals through everyone else's wedges if that works for you.


p.s.- we have an XR18 in one band I play in and it's great. An excellent investment and everybody can control their own monitor mixes with smart phones.

 

[DirtDog]

I think that looking for the perfect balance on stage is a trap, and a habit that can become really annoying to others if developed. I also think the best way (and this is just my opinion for certain) for us to deal with something like this is to learn to sing in any situation. For me that's accomplished with earplugs. With earplugs in I never need a vocal monitor for myself, my skull becomes my monitor. As for the bass, as someone else mentioned, I'd just get the cabinet closer to my head somehow. Raise it, and move it closer to me.

I once played in a band where the drummer was a complete ass when it came to bass. All he wanted to hear was himself, and he constantly got frustrated and asked me continually to turn down. At a gig one time I turned my bass down completely, and he was still freaking out, "You're too loud!!!". He was mistaking bass frequency in the guitars, for bass. Yes, I eventually quit that band, but the money was good so I dealt. How I dealt was I started putting my amp in front of the drums. He was happy. I was happy. Problem was solved.

Joe - that's hilarious; I've done the same thing on more than once. Good suggestion re: earplugs.

OP: did you try asking for more of your vox/bass in the monitors? That would be the simple solution, I would think.

 

[poomwah]

You need to get your bass cab up higher. I play through a 4x10 and for the past year I've left it on the RockNRoller cart (about 8 inches higher than the floor). I had to lower the volume after doing this but I can hear all of my notes now without blowing away the dance floor. As for vocals consider getting a IEM system. Even if you only play with one earbud it'll make a difference.

Maybe they like your VOX volume where it is

Yeah, I can't say I'd blame anyone if they didn't want to hear any more of my voice. LOL.

As far as the bass, I suggested raising the amp, they are really picky about how things look. That's not going to go over with these guys :\

 

[poomwah]

This. PM 351 (or similarly functioned mini-mixer) + DI. Or, run the bass + whatever FX you want into the PM351, then run that to your stage amp, and feed FOH the bass signal via your amp's DI output. (If I were running sound and didn't know your band, I'd probably prefer to have the DI feed before the Rolls. )

If you decide use a stand-alone DI along with the Rolls, I'd run two things differently than denhou1974, though. Once you've dialed it in, I'd run the PM351 on the floor for a cleaner look. (The Rolls mic stand bracket works well, but it leaves a lot of cabling hanging off the stand. Not a big deal for a rehearsal room or very casual gig, but not a great look when stage aesthetics matter.) I'd also put the bass DI in front of the 351.

If your bass is wired, here's where a 351 on your pedalboard beats a mini-mixer: you can run a single combo instrument/IEM cable from the Rolls between your pedalboard and your bass and IEMs. (The IEM tail can go over the strap button along w/ the instrument output tail, and you plug your IEMs or buds into it as if it were a body pack.) If you're not a big FX player, you can run just a tuner, the PM351, and a DI on a micro pedalboard.

I don't get to run fx, I leave my pedal board at home, my bass goes straight to my amp, then into my 210 and xlr out to board.

so in your scenario, the ear buds would actually be driven off the rolls, right?

 

[poomwah]

why 1 monitor mix?
what you are trying to do sounds like a complicated band aid to a simple problem. You need more mixes, maybe better monitors, maybe a better sound guy ... 1 mix ? in 2015 ?

and then there is the volume chat. If the guitar and drums are drowning you out yet the sound guy says your amp is too loud, that is sort of unbalanced...

VERY well put. They are using a small , powered mixer with ONE monitor out. The band aid is a VERY good reference. The monitors are little tiny powered monitors, they look like 8's and daisy chained off of them is a pair of wedges that have .......wait for it.......6x9's in them. The worst part is, I'm the only one that sees any problem with it.

Another thing not helping is they've got me playing in the mud. They want what they call an "acoustic" sound. I'm personally a HEAVY mid kinda guy, with them dropping out my mids and treble its making it really hard for me to hear what I'm doing.

Again, I can't for the life of me understand why they don't see any problems with any of this

 

[poomwah]

Seems to me this is exactly what the Rolls PM351 is designed for. You said you'd lose a feed to your amp, but all you need to do is run your bass to your amp, then either mic your amp or take a DI line from it to the Rolls and thence to the PA. Or, if you have a pedal with a parallel out/DI line, run the parallel line to the Rolls and the main line to the amp.

But yeah, I would definitely have the volume talk.

my amp only has an xlr line out and the rolls only has a 1/4 instrument in, could I use an xlr to 1/4 inch cable?

 

[poomwah]

My solution is a little more complicated, but it's working great for me when I'm in small situations with only one or two mixes and vocals only in the PA.

Instead of a Rolls, I use a small Alto 6-channel mixer. I made several hardwire split adapters (one female to two males). I take my vocal, my bass, and other inputs as I see fit (kick drum, drum overhead, etc. Sometimes, I bring my own kick mic and overhead mic and stands) and plug them into my little mixer, using the hardwired split adapter to send each input to both my mixer and anywhere else they want my inputs to go. Also, I get a house mix from the main mixer that has vocals in it. Now essentially, I have my own monitor mix to use with my IEMs.

Being a retired pro sound guy, it was easy for me to get this together and make it work. It's a little clumsy with the extra mic cables, but again, I can deal with it pretty easily. I can PM more details if you're interested.

by all means, PLEASE PM, this is probably what I'm going to have to do. A couple guys I know that run sound told me its not going to be long before my personal system is better than the band's

 

[poomwah]

I gather that your band is running its own sound. Depending on the number of channels you need, going for something like an X Air18 might become appealing. That way, the band would have more auxes, probably more flexible and powerful processing and FX, the benefits of digital mixing, and WIFI control. It's also likely to make set-up simpler, physically easier, and faster.

You could then mix your own monitor or IEM aux from your stage position using a smart phone or tablet.

Ironically, they are actually paying someone to run the sound. the guy gets an even cut. Unbelievable. I wish they would lose them and run sound themselves at this point.