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How do I know if I'm not getting the tone I want

C

CaseLogic

Jan 10, 2008
14
0
#1
because of my bass, my amp, or my speaker? I have fairly low end equipment right now, but I do have some money to spend. I'm trying to figure out if I should replace my bass or my equipment first:

Bass: MusicMan SUB
head: Ashdown Mag300H
cab: Avatar 2x10" (MAYBE 15" I can't remember now)

I much prefer the tone of alt-rock bassists like Dirk Lance and Flea... a lot of attack and a bit crunchy when necessary. I know a lot of that is how hard they attack the strings.

What do you guys think? I think I might go with a new bass first, but that's opening a whole new can of worms... time to go to my local guitar center and play around! The problem is, they don't have anything remotely close to my setup there, so how do I know what I'm playing will sound at all like my home setup. Sigh..
 
#2
This looks like fine equipment to me.
I know a bunch of pros who would be happy with it.
I suggest you get new strings and a pro setup for your bass, then spend a bit more time working with your gear.
If you don't even know how many speakers are in your cabs, I will venture saying you haven't very well studied the possibilities of your gear. There is a lot to be said about proper EQing.
 
#3
Jazz Ad said:
This looks like fine equipment to me.
I know a bunch of pros who would be happy with it.
I suggest you get new strings and a pro setup for your bass, then spend a bit more time working with your gear.
If you don't even know how many speakers are in your cabs, I will venture saying you haven't very well studied the possibilities of your gear. There is a lot to be said about proper EQing.
Click to expand...

I agree, it's hard to help you when you don't know what speakers are in your cab. :scowl:
 
#4
You know, while I appreciate your help and time to answer my thread, being condescending doesn't really do anyone any favors here. I'm sorry I don't remember the size of the speakers in my cab right now, although I'm 95% sure they're 10". I honestly don't see why that automatically means that I don't know how to EQ my equipment.

I will take new string recommendations if anyone can give any, but I have toyed with my EQ with that equipment for the last 3 years and have never gotten a tone I've liked out of it.
 
#5
This is not to critize CaseLogic, it probably refers to all of us at one time or another. Call it GAS or whatever, we tend to think that different equipment is need to make us sound like "those other guys". There is so much tone to be found in strings, EQ, playing techinque and personal improvement that we think gear is the "shortcut" to get there. I've been playing bass for 45 years and the longer I play, the more critical I become of my playing. I practice about 3-4 hours a day but probably need to double that. My gear is not exotic but is certainly adequate.
 
#8
Well, not to be condescending, but speaker size is pretty important.

But I always follow the trail back as far as possible. The best advice I ever received about sound reinforcement, whether it's performance or recording, is "start with the source." If the source is flawed, you may never be happy. That would be the instrument itself. If you aren't getting the tone you want straight from the bass, your efforts to color it with electronic processing will lead to frustration. You can only do so much.

I sometimes won't buy a bass if it doesn't resonate well enough unplugged. I listen to the acoustic qualities, because they tell alot about what it's going to sound like through the amp.

Once you're happy with your instrument, strings, pickups, setup, playability, etc., then take a critical look at your amp/speaker combo. If you're playing through a 1X10 or 2X10 and you notice some low end missing, that is to be expected. I wasn't happy with my low end until I moved into 15" speakers.

After you get the bass sounding great on its own through a small amp set to flat EQ, then you may have to start auditioning other amp/speaker choices to see what works. It's a work in progress, but worth the effort once you arrive.
 
#9
electracoyote said:
Well, not to be condescending, but speaker size is pretty important.

But I always follow the trail back as far as possible. The best advice I ever received about sound reinforcement, whether it's performance or recording, is "start with the source." If the source is flawed, you may never be happy. That would be the instrument itself. If you aren't getting the tone you want straight from the bass, your efforts to color it with electronic processing will lead to frustration. You can only do so much.

I sometimes won't buy a bass if it doesn't resonate well enough unplugged. I listen to the acoustic qualities, because they tell alot about what it's going to sound like through the amp.

Once you're happy with your instrument, strings, pickups, setup, playability, etc., then take a critical look at your amp/speaker combo. If you're playing through a 1X10 or 2X10 and you notice some low end missing, that is to be expected. I wasn't happy with my low end until I moved into 15" speakers.

After you get the bass sounding great on its own through a small amp set to flat EQ, then you may have to start auditioning other amp/speaker choices to see what works. It's a work in progress, but worth the effort once you arrive.
Click to expand...
thanks for the advice.

I'm willing to accept that it's my fault and not my equipment that I'm not getting the tone I want (playing technique). I have tried a few different strings, but none really helped.

Sorry I got a bit worked up, bad day at work today. But nevertheless, I was hoping people would just help me out by answering my question instead of pointing the finger at my incompetence and assuming I'm a dullard ;)
 
#10
electracoyote said:
But I always follow the trail back as far as possible. The best advice I ever received about sound reinforcement, whether it's performance or recording, is "start with the source." If the source is flawed, you may never be happy. That would be the instrument itself.
Click to expand...

The fingers, my man.

I'm sure a lot of bassists would agree with me, i sound a lot like myself regardless of what bass i play.
 
#11
CaseLogic said:
You know, while I appreciate your help and time to answer my thread, being condescending doesn't really do anyone any favors here.
Click to expand...

No one's condescending here. Every reply I read (all of them) were very politely and well phrased. Don't take it personally. The fact is, you're not even sure what size of speaker you're using. That is a very big factor in your rig. It's not as bad as "I'm not sure if it's a J or a P..." but we can see that you're not exactly an expert on gear. Which is why you're here, obviously.

Start at the source is good advice. But I'd say the source is not the bass but the fingers. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying the tone is ALL in the fingers, but a LOT of it is.
Chain of command goes Fingers-Bass-Pups-Amp-Speakers
That's highly simplified of course.
 
#12
CaseLogic said:
I much prefer the tone of alt-rock bassists like Dirk Lance and Flea... a lot of attack and a bit crunchy when necessary. I know a lot of that is how hard they attack the strings.
Click to expand...

No offense, gas hits us all in various ways, but if they dig in a lot and you want to sound like them, you got to dig in a more.

Some people play hard and some use a light touch, but they rarely sound like each other, i find.
 
#13
M0ses said:
No one's condescending here. Every reply I read (all of them) were very politely and well phrased. Don't take it personally. The fact is, you're not even sure what size of speaker you're using. That is a very big factor in your rig. It's not as bad as "I'm not sure if it's a J or a P..." but we can see that you're not exactly an expert on gear. Which is why you're here, obviously.

Start at the source is good advice. But I'd say the source is not the bass but the fingers. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying the tone is ALL in the fingers, but a LOT of it is.
Chain of command goes Fingers-Bass-Pups-Amp-Speakers
That's highly simplified of course.
Click to expand...
question is - if I've been playing a certain way for 5.5 years, how do I play differently now? Also where can I learn about differing my finger techniques to produce different tones? From a completely amateur viewpoint... it all looks the same: two fingers alternating and plucking a string. For a more experienced person - you notice the angle they pluck, the attack, etc and understand how it affects the tone. I'm somewhere in between - help!
 
#14
First you need to decide what the tone "is" that you want that you're not getting. If you don't know what you need then you won't know what to search for.

Being intimately acquainted and familiar with all parts, functions and operations of your bass, amp, cabinet and any pedals is the first real place to look for tone. Once you know exactly how to play the instrument technique wise, and what to dial, tweak, or adjust to do certain things tone-wise, then you're equipped to really start chasing a tone that you may not be able to get with your rig.

However, most people are way to impatient to take this route, and resort to swapping gear, strings, basses, and pedals chasing some phantom tone that they can't even explain.


.
 
#15
CaseLogic said:
question is - if I've been playing a certain way for 5.5 years, how do I play differently now? Also where can I learn about differing my finger techniques to produce different tones? From a completely amateur viewpoint... it all looks the same: two fingers alternating and plucking a string. For a more experienced person - you notice the angle they pluck, the attack, etc and understand how it affects the tone. I'm somewhere in between - help!
Click to expand...


Lessons from someone who can instruct you face to face and actually show you difference in technique.
 
#17
All the things you mentioned in technique were correct. They all affect the tone.
Angle
How much finger contact
Where the finger contacts
Where on the bass you pluck
How hard the attack is
to name a few. How do you understand what these sound like tonewise?

Well there is only one way to tell. Play them yourself. Carefully control your technique, just playing a few notes, and experiment to see what you like. Technique can be heavily influenced by strings, specifically their tension. TI Flats are very low-tension and require a light touch, heavy rounds you can reall dig into.
 
#18
I think you've gotten some good advice so I won't repeat it.
I will answer a question in the OP that I don't think has been answered:

"...The problem is, they don't have anything remotely close to my setup there, so how do I know what I'm playing will sound at all like my home setup. Sigh.."

If that is your concern, take your amp and cabnet with you to the store, that way you'll know what the bass sounds like with your gear....or offer to leave a deposit to take it home to try. If they won't let you do either, take your business elsewhere.
 
#19
id get some pretty aggressive strings like a dr hi beam set. then i would start playing up at the base of the neck and work back towards the PUP and even to behind it until you start hear the basic shape of the tone youre looking for. then define you structure you have based off of hand placement with your attack on the strings..this should shape up that tone considerably. then its fine tuning what part of your finger you use porduces what tone.

once you have that technique dialed in then move on to amp switching and gear swaps and stuff. i will agree you probably ought to check oout new gear but get the basics of how youre attacking you gear down first. if you need reference to that i suggest youtubing vids of your heroes and watchintg their hand pklacement and pay attention to their details of how they play..

if Flea is playing his old jazz or a ray or a modulus i can still tell its Flea..its in the hands brother
 
#20
I'm gonna play devil's advocate with the technique-minded posters on this thread. Aside from digging in too hard and distorting the tone, or playing so light you are sucking the tone right out, I think finger/plectrum making reasonable contact with string should be enough to get a decent tone out of a well-primped bass. After 5+ years, I think OP probably has more than a clue about his technique.

One thing OP said that may need to be addressed is, "I much prefer the tone of alt-rock bassists like Dirk Lance and Flea... a lot of attack and a bit crunchy when necessary. I know a lot of that is how hard they attack the strings."

This may not be true. Often, attacking the strings too hard can distort your tone. These players may be giving you the impression they are attacking hard, but that may well be the result of their equipment, starting with their basses.
 

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