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What Frequency Response is Actually Needed for Low Tuning?

#62
A silly amount of Xmax would reduce sensitivity a low which in an already inefficient topology would require silly amounts of power handling in addition to available power.

Otherwise, multiple large cabinets is more likely…
 
#63
A large number of cabinets/drivers is ultimately necessary if you want decent output down low. The Ampeg fridge, while it doesn’t go all that low, actually uses drivers that are not very efficient - it gets around that issue by using 8 (originally 16) drivers; the array gain/mutual coupling makes the whole considerably more efficient than the drivers would be if used solo.
 
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#64
Wasnex said:
It typically takes a large and sophisticated system to pull this off.

There are some smaller subs that have a cardioid pattern. QSC KS212C for example.
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It’s really just a cardioid sub array. You can do it with even cheap subs if you have the right number of boxes / layout / amp channels / competent engineer etc
So you usually only see / hear it in higher end systems

That QSC is a great all in one cardioid sub box
 
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#65
micguy said:
The early work (which often gets quoted or misquoted, without understanding the context) on "missing fundamentals", where the ear/brain system "fills in" the missing fundamental were done for early communications - telephones and things like radios for the military. There, the point was not whether or not it sounded the same, but....does the message get through, and can you tell if it's the person you know who's telling you that. Most human voices have their lowest formants in the 100 to 150 Hz range (mine is 72 Hz, but I digress), and the telephones and radios they were making (the mics were part of the equation) ended up being designed around 300 to 3 kHz. Those "lost formants" aren't vital to the message getting through (most of the information in speech is in the consonants, which don't need 100Hz bandwidth), and there is enough upper formant information left above 300Hz that your ear/brain system can still tell who is talking to you. But, if you want to have a natural conversation (not a 2 minute message, but a real teleconference where the folks on the other end of the link feel like they're in the room with you, you need those formants - yes, I have worked on systems that do high quality conferencing and 300 Hz isn't good enough for that. Your ear "filling things in" isn't the same as those things actually being there.

The same principle applies to good concert sound, but the numbers are different. The line arrays used in concerts are usually good to around 60Hz - if 50 Hz was good enough, people would design the line arrays for 50Hz, and noone would carry subs - subs are heavy, they take up a lot of truck space, they use a lot of power, and you need a bigger crew to move them on and off the truck. Subs don't define what note your are playing, but in a well setup PA, they add a LOT of impact that you just don't get from a system designed to 60 or 50 Hz. 25 Hz is a bit outside the bandwidth of most subs, but 30 Hz is not. A 4 or 5 string bass (40 Hz ish) sounds very different if you lop off the fundamental - yes, you can easily tell if it's there or not - people spend tons of money when putting on concerts because of that truth.

One other way of thinking about this: A 5 string bass guitar goes down to B. A standard piano goes down to A - it goes lower. They are both stringed instruments - they have the same series of overtones. Can you hear the difference? Can you tell which instrument is which? Yes, and a large part of that is that, for the lowest notes on a piano, while you can tell the note that's being played, the instrument doesn't radiate the fundamentals well. Yu our ear is dong the "filling in thing", but it isn't at all the same experience as the bass guitar. The bass, while it doesn't go as low, has... more bass - more fundamental.
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I just want to note that, when reading music, the bass guitar and a grand piano can read the same bass clef note, but the bass guitar sounds one octave lower.
Put another way, the C3 on the piano, which reads the second space up from the bottom on the bass clef, sounds on the bass one line above the clef.
 
#66
bass player 53 said:
I just want to note that, when reading music, the bass guitar and a grand piano can read the same bass clef note, but the bass guitar sounds one octave lower.
Put another way, the C3 on the piano, which reads the second space up from the bottom on the bass clef, sounds on the bass one line above the clef.
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Lowest note on a piano is A0 (27.5 Hz) which is a full step below the B string on a bass (31Hz) No matter how you display it on the staff, the piano goes lower than a 5 (or 6) string bass guitar.
 
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#67
Sealed "Super Subs" for pro audio has been done.

Bag End Quartz-R...these have been discontinued for quite awhile.
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Check the dimensions and weight...this was a pretty big cab. Notice how much the output decreases as the frequency drops from 40Hz to 10Hz. You would need multiple Quartz subs to do justice to 20Hz.
 
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#69
micguy said:
Lowest note on a piano is A0 (27.5 Hz) which is a full step below the B string on a bass (31Hz) No matter how you display it on the staff, the piano goes lower than a 5 (or 6) string bass guitar.
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I agree, however, Conklin sells bass guitar strings that go down to F# below the low B on a 5, or 6 string bass. I talked to Bill before he passed, and he discouraged me from buying them, only because of the amplification problem. Yes, I’m aware that Bosendorfer makes an extended range grand. My point was simply that the bass sounds an octave lower.
You bring up many interesting points.
 
#70
Wasnex said:
I know how it's done...AFAIK most people don't. Setting up a cardioid array with regular subs requires extra cabs and extra space. The QSC KS212C makes it easy; although I believe it gets a bit more complicated if need to build a big sub array with this box.
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Yeah I’ve only ever used 1 or 2 of those boxes not sure how well they’d works if you tried more
 
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#71
micguy said:
Lowest note on a piano is A0 (27.5 Hz) which is a full step below the B string on a bass (31Hz) No matter how you display it on the staff, the piano goes lower than a 5 (or 6) string bass guitar.
Click to expand...
I became interested in this because I heard and then watched a live performance of this Timba Salsa song. I wondered how the hell the bass player was playing all the low notes at any volume. He wasn’t using an octave down pedal (that I could tell).

 
#72
micguy said:
Lowest note on a piano is A0 (27.5 Hz) which is a full step below the B string on a bass (31Hz) No matter how you display it on the staff, the piano goes lower than a 5 (or 6) string bass guitar.
Click to expand...
Unless you have an Xtender on your B string like I do. Drops the B string a step down to the A….😁

Which, I know, is absolutely useless information for this discussion…..

Carry on, I’ll see myself out….🥴 😁
 
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#73
I've been around Car Audio for a while, but this will be my first non-open-back musical instrument cab project. Getting back on track a little it sounds like I should focus on getting a decent efficiency at 40-50 hz but lower isn't going to hurt anything. I'm also under no illusion that this is going to be a small light cab, my expectation is it's going to be in the 12-15 ft³ range similar in dimensions to an 8x10 but deeper and taller. This will primarily be used as the bass cab of either a ric-o-sound or stereo rig with an open back 1 15 guitar cab on top.
 
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#78
Wasnex said:
In your living room, yes. Not really practical for live performance.
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Exactly, doing that in a venue would not be needed and likely impossible to implement. Haha, not to mention it would do more harm than good. The whole swarm setup is meant for a single individual or small group like a home theater. I believe the multiple sub setup was either mentioned by Floyd toole or Vance Dickinson in one of their books.
 
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#79
The "Hive" was never meant for pro sound reinforcement. When it came to live bass amplification, Professor LeJeune had plenty of other great ideas and applications.

He implemented numerous designs and ideas with availability and accessibility. And, he did so while showing respect, admiration, and affection for bass players. Sure, there were compromises to preserve practicalty and affordability.

However, in his vernacular, he knew when and how to "zig" when others zagged. Definitely miss his presence on Talkbass, and his evolution of design and production of bass cabinets.
 
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#80
I knew Duke from the hifi shows, one of the best guys I have met in the audio biz. He definitely had a uniqueness to design how he wanted and not follow the status quo. I see him on the audio science review forum sometimes, though I'm only occasionally on that forum.
 

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