Double Bass How do you approach improvised changes in time signature?

[Don Kasper]

the bridge in actual double time.

FYI - it is known as a "double time FEEL" not "actual double time".
Thx.

 

[TroyK]

Right.

Double time feel, half timefeel, "bossa, but swing the bridge" are all in time. The bar line doesn't move.

 

[Contrabenjista]

Yeah, actual double time would mean doubling the speed of the melody and chords changes. Double time feel is just subdividing the rhythm in 1/2.

Totally improvise-able, and if the other bandmates take a few beats to join, nothing is F'd.

Tempo changes (accelerandos/ritardando) are also possible improvised, though trickier, because they can be heard and felt as they are happening, and just before, with a couple notes in a melody cueing the change.

Actual time signature changes (3/4 to 4/4 to 5/4 etc) have to be planned somehow, because otherwise you don't know how many beats a measure has until it's over, if you haven't communicated it in advance.

 

[bass player 53]

Yeah, thanks guys. I’ve had a heavy
interest in Cuban and Puerto Rican
‘salsa’ and danceable Latin music for the last two decades. My jazz gigs have been scarce and I forget the terminology often. The YouTube stuff
that came from Emmet Cohen’s
‘rent parties’ has been fantastic, as
well as the videos of live performances
from places like Smalls Jazz Club. Much of the latter sounds to me
like the European ECM records, the
kind of ‘chamber jazz’ thing.

 

[turf3]

Right.

Double time feel, half timefeel, "bossa, but swing the bridge" are all in time. The bar line doesn't move.

It's probably the most common thing people do on slow tunes. Either to double up on the bridge, or double up for certain choruses. There are certain characteristic musical things a soloist does, to indicate to a rhythm section that he wants to double up. It's kind of disappointing to be there, to state those things, and have the clueless no-listening rhythm section not respond.

To be completely clear, in the ablve I am referring to "double time FEEL", not actualy playing the chords twice as fast, which rarely happens and would have to be pre-planned and rehearsed. Almost always when musicians say "double up in the bridge" or similar, they mean FEEL, not actually speeding the tempo to 2X. If they were playing in 2, they'll start playing in 4. If they were playing in 4, they'll start playing in 8.

There is also the rubato introduction and then considerably faster main body of the tune, which is so common it hardly even merits discussion. Also works best with some pre-planning and rehearsal, so that everyone knows when you go into time and what tempo it'll be.

Frankly if I heard someone in one of my groups suddenly going into 3/4 for a couple bars, it'd be a mistake; I'm not playing with guys of the caliber that can do that kind of stuff on the fly.

 

[blakelock]

here's a super cool example. I *think miles davis goes half time during aprt of his solo in the bill evans tune blue in green. this is a beautiful (and strange! 10 bar form ?!?) tune and when i play along, i believe miles takes one chorus of his solo in half time (i.e., each chord is held for 2 measures instead of 1).

blue in green

 

[matthewbrown]

Bill Evans recorded the beautiful tune
‘How My Heart Sings’, a waltz with a 4/4 bridge. I know that’s not what we’re
saying here, but I’ll put it out there.
I actually have no idea what the OP
is talking about.

I used to call this tune in a drummerless trio a lot. The pianist expressed dismay, but I'd play the offbeats in the 4/4 section consistently and it held together.

 

[matthewbrown]

No one likes a jazz cop on stage. Yes I know when someone drops a beat or whatever. I only immature, insecure musicians need to telegraph that information to the audience. Be kind to the people you play with; try and make everyone sound as good as you can, cause why not? I will mention things at the end of the night but I am not going to throw anyone under the bus on stage. The form is always a negotiation anyways...

This was a worked arrangement for sure but this always seemed like telepathy to me:

I remember attending a performance featuring Mick Goodrick on guitar, Jeff Berlin, a very good drummer whose name I forget, and a well-known local guitarist known for "taking it out." On one modal tune, he did, and you could see Jeff Berlin rapidly counting the subdivision aloud as the whole thing went down. When it was over, it was clear that the local guitarist had no interest in maintaining the same metrical or formal structure that Jeff Berlin appeared to be so keen on holding together. At least, that was my take on it. Mr. Berlin didn't look very happy about it.

 

[bassmanbrent]

Mr. Berlin didn't look very happy about it.

What? Jeff Berlin having strong opinions about something? Impossible!

 

[Don Hergert]

Interesting thread, even to this bluegrasser...

My band does "Lover" in 4 once through, and then finishes it with once more through in 3. We originally learned it in 4 for some reason and the 4-3 arrangement just happened on a whim. It's fun.

 

[Pietsch]

Aaron Copland said that when he composed music that he would "ride the rhythm". On paper this sometimes was written with frequent meter changes. But, meter changes with the implication of accents or groupings weren't his intent.

If a soloist stays in time with the ride cymbal or something else that's enough glue in some situation regardless of time signature.

 

[Don Kasper]

Aaron Copland said

Here is what else Aaron Copland "said":

Funny cat...He spoke at Eastman in the late 70's.

 

[Pietsch]

Here is what else Aaron Copland "said":
View attachment 7421866

Funny cat...He spoke at Eastman in the late 70's.

I heard Aaron Copland's explanation of riding the rhythm instead of phrasing based upon changing time signatures while he was rehearsing the Indiana University Philharmonic Orchestra for a concert in 1972. I was in the double bass section. I've used this principal many times in my arrangements over the years.

I also had the good fortune of studying with double bass soloist Gary Karr while he taught at Indiana University, and later through the Hartt School. Gary Karr fostered thousands of double bass players to excel as soloists. Gary Karr sang the melody beautifully.

Ron Carter is also an extraordinary double bass soloist.

 

[Don Kasper]

Ron Carter is also an extraordinary double bass soloist.

What is one of your favorite "extraordinary" RC bass solos?
Thanks.

 

[climber]

But then you guys know what happens in open jams; you're playing in 4/4 swing then during the pianist's solo, he might do two bars of a 3/4 lick and then the drummer and bass would just follow like they telepathically messaged each other.

62 years of playing bass and 50 of playing jazz. IMNSHO the above is a bad idea UNLESS it is worked out. accompanists shouldn't just blythley follow someone like that because 99% of the time the soloist is doing it as a contract to the tune form. you do you of course. but if I hear this happening, my thought is that these are people I don't want to play with. just sayin...

 

[scrubhelmet]

62 years of playing bass and 50 of playing jazz. IMNSHO the above is a bad idea UNLESS it is worked out. accompanists shouldn't just blythley follow someone like that because 99% of the time the soloist is doing it as a contract to the tune form. you do you of course. but if I hear this happening, my thought is that these are people I don't want to play with. just sayin...

This thread has been started a few months ago, and I've adhered to the advice of the majority here to stick to my own time.