• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass How do you approach improvised changes in time signature?

#21
No one likes a jazz cop on stage. Yes I know when someone drops a beat or whatever. I only immature, insecure musicians need to telegraph that information to the audience. Be kind to the people you play with; try and make everyone sound as good as you can, cause why not? I will mention things at the end of the night but I am not going to throw anyone under the bus on stage. The form is always a negotiation anyways...

This was a worked arrangement for sure but this always seemed like telepathy to me:

 
#25
VicDiesel said:
Creative. But the time signature changes were all agreed in advance, I presume. I don't think this could be done telepathically, like the OP wants.
Click to expand...
I get that, I just thought it was interesting that this was the tune that was posted in this context.

OTOH, when Victor Wooten sat in with my band back in the late 90s in Telluride, we had lots of time signature changes (all original music) and he hit them all.

EV2.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Wow
Reactions: VicDiesel
#26
Don Kasper said:
Yeah. I did that and it sounds fine to me.
At the end of his solo, MJ plays the last measure of the form: quarter rest, HalfNote G, Quarter note C.
Shrug?
Click to expand...
Sorry, it’s a few measures before that. By the time EG (not MJ) ends his solo, the time has stabilized.


Contrabenjista said:
There's a slight ritardando at the end of the bass solo, starting at 2:51--not a time signature change--which signals the feel change. The ritardando is supported by dropping subdivisions in the drums to be less rhythmically rigid for a moment.
Click to expand...
If anything, it’s an accelerando. If you count the form, there’s no way the group as a whole slows down unless they start dropping beats.
 
#30
LightForce104 said:
If anything, it’s an accelerando. If you count the form, there’s no way the group as a whole slows down unless they start dropping beats.
Click to expand...

Sure, I guess you could perversely call it an accelerando.

And you can write out rubato passages as if they were super complex time signature changes, based on strict BPM analysis.

However, from a melodic phrasing and overall listener perspective, the tempo is slowing down to a near halt, starting with the ritardando at 2:50. The drum drops subdivisions then, the bass phrasing indicates further ritardando, and piano continues ritardando all the way to the resolution note of the bass solo, before resetting the tempo.

Here it is at .75 speed

 
Last edited:
#31
scrubhelmet said:
Last night, I was drinking with my friends in our jazz club, and our saxophonist friend told us that he hates musicians who don't play with open ears, even in non-jazz genres such as pop. Then our drummer friend told us that while it might be easier to do this in pop and rock, it's not that easy for jazz. She also mentioned that because of her experience in pop music, she usually wants to play as close to the click as possible. But then you guys know what happens in open jams; you're playing in 4/4 swing then during the pianist's solo, he might do two bars of a 3/4 lick and then the drummer and bass would just follow like they telepathically messaged each other.
Click to expand...

I'm with your drummer on this one. I'm not a big fan of throwing out the form when playing tunes most of the time, but of course if the energy is there and folks are connected on it then all good. But if i am soloing over the tune, i am actively trying to stick to the form and not add/remove beats on the fly. Exceptions could be if i am improvising an intro or the whole band drops out during my solo, allowing me to go more free form before cuing the band back in at the end of my section.

Of course anything you want to do is fair game, just gotta be aware of how it jives with the people you are playing or "conversing" with. Sort of a don't fart in church type of deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scrubhelmet and edwinhurwitz
#34
TroyK said:
but @scrubhelmet please clarify for us.
Click to expand...
I apologize, my musical vocabulary is weak as I didn't have any formal lessons. I realized I didn't mean changes in time signature but:
Contrabenjista said:
Here are two examples of tempo, feel, rhythmic pattern changes in an improvised context
Click to expand...
I think this is what I meant to say.

I don't usually record live performances as I want to enjoy them with my own my eyes instead of looking through my phone's camera, but here is probably the closest thing to what I want to say. At 0:23, the drummer adds more bass drums, which I think changes the feel of the song:



This drummer and my band's drummer had played more drastic changes before. Maybe I'll update this thread again when I capture the moment that explains what I want to say.

TroyK said:
My snide take is that someone wants to claim that this is an artistic choice and everyone should "use their ears" and drop or add whatever beats they did,
Click to expand...
Not related to changing the time signature, but in one of my bands, we do this sort of thing during improvised solos where one of us would usually suggest a change in the feel of the music by changing the rhythm, tempo, or dynamics of the way they're playing, and then one by one (or almost at the same time), the other musicians will follow accordingly. We really enjoy doing this and I think the audience and bar owners also do so since we keep getting gigs.

Also, thanks for the other comments saying that I should hold the form down.
 
#35
Ok, so in your video, it sounds like
your pianist styles himself in the
quartal harmonic post Coltrane/Tyner
manner. He can be soloing along and then go into a half time feel. Hearing
this, the drummer and bassist can
follow along. The pianist may continue
this way or go back to a double time
feel again, or a horn soloist may
pick that up at the end of the piano
solo. There are countless live performances of this type of thing from
Woody Shaw, Wynton Marsalis, Herbie
Hancock Quartet, on and on.
Switching from half time, double time, shuffle, Latin feel, swing feel- all without changing the basic meter.
Jazz Masters feel completely at
home and comfortable with this.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: scrubhelmet and Tom Lane
#37
Normally in a jazz context, unless it is very experimenmtal/free, there is an expectation to keep the meter solid, as others have said here. Mistakes happen and sometimes there is an adjustment needed, but usually it's the soloist coming back into sync w/ the rhythm section. On the head of a tune however, if a melody instrument or singer drops a beat, the rhythm section may decide to adapt if it doesn't appear that the melody is going to rejoin them :).

Those are mistakes though, and are hopefully very uncommon.

One thing you may encounter however is polyrhythms. For example a soloist could play in 6 against the 4 of the rhythm section (or vice versa). This is not the same as going "into" 3 or 6, because the "1" stays in the same place throughout. Here, a 6 feel is really like quarter-note triplets in 4/4 (or a 3 feel would be heard like half-note triplets). Mathematically everything works out, and the "1" always stays the same. You can hear this on Miles Daves version of Footprints. The song is in 6 (or 3, depending how you feel it), but the rhythm section goes into a 4 (or 8) feel briefly on the turnaround. If you counted through using the original 6 (or 3 feel) throughout, it would still work.

Approximately like this:
||: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :||
||: 1 2 3 4 :||

But it is very uncommon (or at least undesirable and a potential train wreck) to spontaneously adapt a meter due to someone improvising and dropping a beat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: scrubhelmet
#38
scrubhelmet said:
...you're playing in 4/4 swing then during the pianist's solo, he might do two bars of a 3/4 lick and then the drummer and bass would just follow like they telepathically messaged each other.
...
Click to expand...
Huh?

That's either a screw up or the people involved are far more advanced than the rest of your text would imply.

NO, it is not common in playing jazz for people to spontaneously change the time signature.
 
#39
scrubhelmet said:
I apologize, my musical vocabulary is weak as I didn't have any formal lessons. I realized I didn't mean changes in time signature but:

I think this is what I meant to say.

I don't usually record live performances as I want to enjoy them with my own my eyes instead of looking through my phone's camera, but here is probably the closest thing to what I want to say. At 0:23, the drummer adds more bass drums, which I think changes the feel of the song:



This drummer and my band's drummer had played more drastic changes before. Maybe I'll update this thread again when I capture the moment that explains what I want to say.


Not related to changing the time signature, but in one of my bands, we do this sort of thing during improvised solos where one of us would usually suggest a change in the feel of the music by changing the rhythm, tempo, or dynamics of the way they're playing, and then one by one (or almost at the same time), the other musicians will follow accordingly. We really enjoy doing this and I think the audience and bar owners also do so since we keep getting gigs.

Also, thanks for the other comments saying that I should hold the form down.
Click to expand...


bass player 53 said:
Ok, so in your video, it sounds like
your pianist styles himself in the
quartal harmonic post Coltrane/Tyner
manner. He can be soloing along and then go into a half time feel. Hearing
this, the drummer and bassist can
follow along. The pianist may continue
this way or go back to a double time
feel again, or a horn soloist may
pick that up at the end of the piano
solo. There are countless live performances of this type of thing from
Woody Shaw, Wynton Marsalis, Herbie
Hancock Quartet, on and on.
Switching from half time, double time, shuffle, Latin feel, swing feel- all without changing the basic meter.
Jazz Masters feel completely at
home and comfortable with this.
Click to expand...
How about this? It's a short clip but it shows what I was trying to say. Check out the change around 10 seconds.

 
#40
Ok, so in the last clip, the whole group
plays the bridge in actual double time. That is, they play the bridge in time, but twice as fast, then return to the original swing tempo.
It’s not telepathic. It’s just a device that,
in this case the pianist started and the others followed. I’m sure they’ve done
this before, somewhere and at some other time. It’s not the kind of thing that is picked up in a typical jam session.
They are also very professional, experienced players with great chops.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AGCurry, scrubhelmet and Contrabenjista

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back