Double Bass How do you produce short fast bow strokes?

[David Potts]

I use French bow and have a broad idea but no expertise in the German bow. In Andy Mopley's last thread titled "Tips on how to best practice this, please?" Cory Palmer and I were discussing how to bow fast repeated notes across two or more strings. His last post drew attention to the role of the back muscles and this suggested that I was talking to a German bow user. As a Frenchie I place a lot of faith in the right elbow, wrist and fingers to produce the fastest movements.

My approach for ON-THE_STRING strokes, be it for whole bows or shortest movements, uses the "twitch" muscles of the biceps and triceps. These are lined up with the bow direction of travel by rotating the elbow( a hinge joint that only bends in one direction) up and out slightly. The index finger of the bow hold and the ball joint of the shoulder are pivot points at each end of this rotation and I imagine them being connected by as natural a dotted line up my arm as possible. This turns my lower arm and bow hold in on my index finger a few degrees, throwing weight forward and down into the string. Not too much rotation or I get a sore shoulder and not too little or the up bow lifts off the string. Either extreme defeats the elbow use, causing whole arm movements from the much slower shoulder muscles. The vertical weight of my arm, often assisted by muscles under my arm, rests on the string and gives me power.They do not interfere with the freedom to move the bow sideways. My wrist and fingers are relaxed,trying to match the flexibility of the string and bow hair. They can also amplify the twitch to make spiccato, sautille and tremolo strokes without stiffening.

For OFF-THE-STRING playing I lower my elbow and use a flatter bow hold , still aware of the role of my elbow as I scoop or bounce with the bow.

Whether you are French or German, or agree/disagree with me, which muscles do you use for speed? I am all ears !!

 

[Cory Palmer]

To take our discussion from before a little further, I don't think of fast strokes any different from slow strokes. The same muscles are involved but the motions get more condensed as I get faster. In general I try use my entire body. A lot of my strokes start from my lower body. Try just standing and let your upper body be completely relaxed. Swing your arms from side to side without using the muscles in your arms. Is the motion going to start in your shoulders, back, hips, feet? Watch how great professional athletes create power that seems effortless. It's the same for us. Mike Tyson is one of my favorites to watch for this kind of thing.

When we are playing faster that power doesn't have to go away. The motions just become smaller. I mainly play German bow but whenever I play French bow the same mechanisms are in play. Just because the forearm is turned in more for French doesn't make me change the way I produce sound.

As far as on the string verses off the string strokes the big difference is in how much I articulate and release with my fingers. I view the strokes as essentially the same motions but off the string has a little wider arc in the arm and a little more articulation with the fingers. The way I teach off the string is for the student to do a large arcing motion and as the bow hair gets close to the string give a little flick with the fingers then let the bounce from the bow determine how high the arc should go up. As they speed it up they can't let the arc be so high. Once you get going fast enough off the string and on the string become essentially the same. I'm a fan of the onff stroke, the bow still bounces but the hair doesn't leave the string.

I guess the short answer to your question is that I use my whole body whether it's fast or slow playing. I just condense the movements as I get faster.

 

[Cory Palmer]

I should also add that I sit when I play but the swinging arm exercise still applies. I sit so that my weight is forward and I can actively use the weight that's going into my feet rather then sitting back centered on my hips. Thinking about the transfer of energy like this can also help with avoiding back pain/injuries.

 

[Andy Mopley]

I guess, for me, often speed=increased muscle tension, so would be great to understand how you can relax..at speed!

 

[s van order]

This is why I like talkbass! I play cello these days, my DB playing days likely to remain in the past, but even after accounting for the (not too large imo) differences in technique between the instruments, I get great info and advice out of the DB forum. My teacher is very good at breaking down mechanics and I will have to chat with her about the approaches here. Thanks.

 

[csrund]

Love these kinds of threads. I play both bows, but have been using the German stick almost exclusively for the past couple of years, due to chronic thumb pain with the French bow. Here's how I approach bow arm mechanics:

1. For long, legato strokes, the locus of movement comes from the back muscles, with relaxed shoulder, elbow and wrist, giving the arm a fluid motion, like a rope or a noodle. I shouldn't ever feel like I'm deliberately using musculature to press the bow into the string. The muscle effort is minimal; the mass of the arm itself provides the force to get the bow into the string, while allowing the muscles to relax and shape the musical phrasing and articulation.
2. The shorter/faster the stroke, the less it feels like the back muscles are involved (although they are). I think of it like a pendulum; there is very little movement at the top, but much more at the bottom. So with a short stroke, there is little perceptible movement in the back/shoulder, but that's where the energy is originating.
3. For spiccato or sautielle stroke, the locus of motion is still in the back muscles, but transitions from a broad, horizontal motion to a vertical, "pumping" motion, yet always relaxed; the arm remains fluid. The vertical motion into the string produces the bouncing action of the bow. I sometimes think of it as somewhat like cracking a whip—it starts in the back/shoulder, very relaxed, and by the time it reaches the wrist and hand, there's a really lively action meeting the string. That lively action is controlled by the elbow, wrist and fingers, which serve as a series of interlinked springs or shock absorbers—but never under seizing tension; always relaxed muscle controls.
4. Staccato articulation on the French bow is punctuated by the index finger; on the German bow, it's the thumb. (The videos by Andy Anderson and Klaus Stoll, respectively, offer good explanation of this.)

That's my personal frame of reference. I love discussing bow technique—it's so central to the experience of bringing out the voice of the bass, especially in the orchestral setting. As Gary Karr has said, analogizing it to singing, "The bow is your breath."

Thanks for an interesting thread!

Chris

 

[zeytoun]

I started out on German bow. After years of being a self-taught pizzer, I took classical lessons about a year ago, on German. I was starting to learn to play tango, which uses a lot of bow--but differently than most classical.

The meat-and-potatoes of tango bass is called marcato. It's 1/4 notes like a jazz walking bassline, but they're often bowed, and super staccato. And then you spice them up by accenting the 1s and 3s heavier, slurring into downbeats etc. A lot of subtle articulation.

It can be done, but there are very few tango bassists who play with german bow. The vast majority use french. So I switched to French grip last fall. The grip was awkward at first, but I quickly saw why French works better with tango.

With the German grip, I was relying more on big muscle groups for articulation. If I want to bow a super short, fast, staccato note german style, it involved a lot of shoulder and upper arm motion.

With the French grip, the extra articulation is coming from my wrist (and to a lesser degree, my elbow). I'm able to "snap" the bow off the string to clip the note with a little flick of the wrist. It's a lot more efficient.

For reference, here's a before and after comparison.

The first video is german grip. I'm doing a vals, not a 4/4 tango, and I'm just a couple months into classical lessons at this point, so my technique and intonation is pretty bad. But around the 1.29 mark you can see me attempting the more staccato notes--with varying success.



The second video is french grip. I'm doing a tango, and this is from last night (after 8 months of practice), so it's not apples-to-apples. And my wrists are a bit stiff for the first part of the video. But at the 0.32 mark you can see where my wrist is adding the extra snap. The passage is way more staccato than the first video, and I'm barely moving past my elbow.

 

[s van order]

I use French bow and have a broad idea but no expertise in the German bow. In Andy Mopley's last thread titled "Tips on how to best practice this, please?" Cory Palmer and I were discussing how to bow fast repeated notes across two or more strings. His last post drew attention to the role of the back muscles and this suggested that I was talking to a German bow user. As a Frenchie I place a lot of faith in the right elbow, wrist and fingers to produce the fastest movements.

My approach for ON-THE_STRING strokes, be it for whole bows or shortest movements, uses the "twitch" muscles of the biceps and triceps. These are lined up with the bow direction of travel by rotating the elbow( a hinge joint that only bends in one direction) up and out slightly. The index finger of the bow hold and the ball joint of the shoulder are pivot points at each end of this rotation and I imagine them being connected by as natural a dotted line up my arm as possible. This turns my lower arm and bow hold in on my index finger a few degrees, throwing weight forward and down into the string. Not too much rotation or I get a sore shoulder and not too little or the up bow lifts off the string. Either extreme defeats the elbow use, causing whole arm movements from the much slower shoulder muscles. The vertical weight of my arm, often assisted by muscles under my arm, rests on the string and gives me power.They do not interfere with the freedom to move the bow sideways. My wrist and fingers are relaxed,trying to match the flexibility of the string and bow hair. They can also amplify the twitch to make spiccato, sautille and tremolo strokes without stiffening.

For OFF-THE-STRING playing I lower my elbow and use a flatter bow hold , still aware of the role of my elbow as I scoop or bounce with the bow.

Whether you are French or German, or agree/disagree with me, which muscles do you use for speed? I am all ears !!

Hi David. I really analyzed how I did this with attention to the shoulder, elbow and wrist mechanics, arm angle and height and hand pronation. I agree that the fast twitch elbow muscles are a key. If I do not get this right the shoulder or the wrist do too much work. The wrist can get injured and the shoulder can get sore. I also found my triceps strained if I did not keep the elbow joint supple and benefiting from good balance. The articulation and tone are best using the elbow as you described. Hand is more pronated and elbow up a bit more vs long bows to get the best bite and angle the elbow properly. A bit more pronated hand to get a stronger bite on accented notes, less so for even sound. I am a cellist playing french bow of course. So this also demonstrates the close kinship between playing the little bass and the double bass.