How do you sidechain your bass to the kick drum?

[Nenko]

When making music digitally, especially in electronic styles like House, EDM, Trance, Dubstep, etc. the bass is sidechained to the kick drum so it slightly dips in volume when the kick hits. Thus, both sounds being low frequencies don't interfere with each other, making the mix flow better.

Is there a way to do this in bands playing live?

 

[Pumpkin]

Maybe? You would have to find a way to incorporate the kick drum into your signal chain without actually projecting it through your amplifier. That might look like a mic'd kick into a compressor that has a dedicated input for a trigger, and a separate input for the through signal being compressed. I know of no such thing.

 

[monkeyfinger]

Compressor with a side chain input. Send the drums to the side-chain.

 

[dnp41]

Interesting idea. I haven't heard of it being used, but perhaps someone with more experience can shine in. The only technical solution I can think of is to use a digital mixer that has the option to sidechain, or run everything trough a DAW live. But that would mean that you'd have to go trough FOH, so this wouldn't really work in a small bar setting

 

[monkeyfinger]

BTW, another common setup is to gate the bass. The gate has a side-chain input which is getting the signal from the kick. So the bass is strongest when the kick is hit. Voila! Instant lock-in.

 

[dnp41]

check this post: A Compressor Pedal w/Sidechain
post #3 shows a pedal compressor with sidechain option

 

[monkeyfinger]

It' really not that hard. You set up the compressor with a low threshold. Set the ration fairly high. Then set the make-up gain at 0dB or lower. A parallel out from the kick channel is sent to the compressor side-chain input. The kick now triggers the detection circuit. When the kick is hit, the detection circuit compresses the bass signal.

 

[monkeyfinger]

Ducking - Wikipedia

 

[walterw]

i've mostly heard about this kind of thing with old-school country bands, ducking the bass under the kick or especially gating the bass with the kick as the trigger.

they're kind of opposite goals though; ducking the bass means that the most important notes, the ones that lock with the kick drum, are the ones you don't hear as loud

...while the gate thing is supposed to make it so the only notes you hear are the ones that lock in with the kick, essentialy automating the bass player's sense of time and rendering him little more than a pitch generator for the kick drum.

i'll play without guardrails on my sound and control my own time and dynamics, thankyouverymuch.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I'm with you. That said, more subtle gating results are possible if you split the bass to an additional channel, gate that channel, and mix to taste in FOH only.

 

[brianrost]

i've mostly heard about this kind of thing with old-school country bands, ducking the bass under the kick or especially gating the bass with the kick as the trigger.

That's the strangest thing I've read in a long time.

The whole idea of the bass and bass drum playing together on the same beat is they reinforce each other. Since in "old school" country, the bass often plays only on downbeats when the bass drum also plays, what would be the point of ducking the bass??

 

[walterw]

That's the strangest thing I've read in a long time.

yeah, i think it's mostly the gating thing rather than the ducking thing i've heard about in that context.

with the gate triggered off the kick, the bass automatically is in perfect time with the kick even if the player is slightly early.

 

[cultrvultr]

I've tried it. It's fun, but doesn't automatically make it sound like you're using Ableton, especially if you are using acoustic drums and a regular bass tone. Its more subtle live. Would take some work to really sound as exact as on the computer. I had better results using a stereo compressor to squeeze the bass drum and then put that in the gate of the other channel.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

For the technically challenged (like me):

 

[Timmy-Watts]

I understand the concept, OP, for recorded music. You want that dip on the attacks and swell because our notes are longer than the kick.

For live performance with acoustic drums and real bass guitar, I'd rather use an effect like a slow opening gate or one of those "reverse" envelope type effects, rather than having all my playing volume determined by someone else. And I assume it would be in a bigger dance type venue, where you'd want to let the FOH guy do all that. You wouldn't want it so much on stage. Imo

 

[Nenko]

Awesome replies guys, thanks!

 

[monkeyland]

As a front of house engineer I use a side chained compressor on the bass all of the time when it comes to modern pop, rock, country, etc. This lets me get both the Kick and the bass pretty hot in the mix, without making either one take over the whole thing. Every time the kick hits, the bass dips down just a little. Not enough that you would otherwise notice, but enough that it allows them to both be nice and strong, yet have their own space. I also tend to Hi-Pass the bass quite a bit, depending on how the system is tuned, to allow the kick to sit underneath it. The bass will still be nice and full but not overly rumbly.

I would not bother with any of these techniques on stage as part of the bass rig. Too little payoff and I agree that the players should be doing what they can to lock in on their own. My Front of House techniques are just extra spice depending on what the PA is doing.

 

[sawzalot]

This is relatively easy to do with many of the digital mixers out there--the X32 Rack that I use and the Midas gear it's based on all have this capability. I've fooled with it and it seems like a good idea at the expense of some complexity:

--The channel strip compressors are either triggered off the channel's signal or another channel. Not both. So somehow you need two compressors on the bass, one triggered off the bass signal to smooth it out and one triggered off the kick to duck the bass beneath the kick. There are choices for how to achieve this: 1) Grab a compressor effect from the FX palette and use it as an insert FX on the bass channel to smooth the bass signal. This works fine, and some of the FX compressors sound really good, but it does burn an FX slot. 2) Send the bass to a post-fader mix bus and compress the bus with the compressor on the bus. This also works fine but burns a mix bus and is sensitive to the input fader's level, which is also fine as long as you're aware of it. No free lunch here--choose what suits your situation best.

--Whichever method you choose, the channel strip compressors can be triggered off of another channel--in this case you'd trigger it off of the kick drum channel. You'd need to fool with the attack/release parameters to get the ducking sound you're after.

--If all goes well it'll sound great and the audience will be out there having an amazing time.

Here's the problem--that last statement is a big IF. Sometimes simple is better. I choose to spend my time with a multiband compressor on the kick drum because I can get a really awesome kick tone with tons of slam/thud/thwack that way. I set it up a long time ago and have forgotten about it since because it always works. I suppose I could do the same thing with the ducking technique, but...I have other things on my mind. I'd probably do it if I was running sound exclusively though. But I'm not, so I don't. And I find with my band:

--The audience is still out there having an amazing time without the ducking.

But that could be different with a different style of music, too.


Tom

 

[40Hz]

i'll play without guardrails on my sound and control my own time and dynamics, thankyouverymuch.

I suppose it depends on the genre and style of music to some extent. But yeah, I'm with @walterw on this one. I have a a role and a function within the context of the band and its music. I won't willingly abrogate my role and hand it over to a piece of technology.

Maybe that's just me. But I have a little pride and self-respect still left in me as a bassist. I'm not just a sequencer.

--//

To answer the OP's actual question however, as others previously suggested, a compressor with a sidechain feature triggered by the kick is what you're looking for.

 

[monkeyland]

I also use the same ducking technique for guitars in a hard rock mix, basically anytime the guitars need to be in your face. Guitars go to a stereo bus which has a compressor on it. That compressor gets keyed by the lead vocal so anytime the lead vocalist is singing the guitars automatically go down just a tiny bit to clear some room. This allows them both to be the same overall volume in the mix without masking the vocal.

Keyboards could also go to that same bus.