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How does one spell C-9b5?

#22
Originally posted by Pacman


I was using the (add x) as a "for example" deal, not the one of which we were speaking.

To the second part of your post, incorrect. Anytime you write XDim, you are implying the full 4 note chord (please see where we discussed this in another thread). I've been a professional, reading musician for 15+ years, and don't recall ever seeing a Dim9 chord, for exactly the reasons moley and I have discussed - you're not really sure which 9 you'd add. So, again, my advice would be to write either CDim7 (add 9) or CDim7 (addb9) - thereby eliminating any possible confusion.
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That's cool. I must say Pacman, I don't want to seem like I have a stick up my rear here or anything, but I disagree.. :D

Anytime you see Xdim, implies simple tertian harmony, no seventh is in the chord. The scale tones would be 1, b3, and b5. If you see, Xdim7, then the scale tones are 1, b3, b5, and bb7. Wether or not people write a full diminished 7th chord with a 9th on top as Xdim9 or Xdim7(add 9), I'im not sure. I can say this though, for major, minor, dominant, and half-diminished chords, the 9th indicates there is a 7th. For example, C-9 indicates there must be a b7 in the chord as well, whereas Cmin (add 9) indicates that there is a C minor triad, with a D imposed on top - no seventh. Therefore, I'm simply speculating that this rule may apply to the other full 7th chord, besides maj7, min7, dominant 7, and half-diminished 7th --- the full diminished 7th chord. Again, whether or not this is seen in published sheet music, I am unaware.. but it seems logical that the rule would follow for dim7 just like it does for every other 7th chord with where the 9th, 11th, or 13th (and variations of these) are imposed on top of the tonality dictated by the root 7th chord.
 
#24
Controversial topic, this one... originally I always thought that a dim chord was all 4 notes. Then when I did A-Level music I was told that a dim chord was just the root, minor 3rd and diminished 5th, and that a dim7 chord is root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, and diminished 7th. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned... However, in a Jazz setting, I don't think it really matters, because the whole 4-note chord will always fit where you see a dim chord written (obviously not a half dim tho).
 
#25
moley you are right. a dim triad is a three note chord, and a dim 7 is a four note chord regardless if the dim7 is half or full diminished.

now, whether or not a player chooses to play all of the notes of a chord is up to his/her style and taste.
many people will leave out the p5 and any octaves since they do not contribute to the charateristics of the chord. for instance, i often play root, 3rd and 7th on my bass when i'm playing a fast progression- leaving out the fifth since it's roll is more supportive than imperative to the definition of chord quality.

obviously a dim5 or aug5 would need to be included since they define chord quality.:)
 
#26
Originally posted by moley
Controversial topic, this one... originally I always thought that a dim chord was all 4 notes. Then when I did A-Level music I was told that a dim chord was just the root, minor 3rd and diminished 5th, and that a dim7 chord is root, minor 3rd, diminished 5th, and diminished 7th. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned... However, in a Jazz setting, I don't think it really matters, because the whole 4-note chord will always fit where you see a dim chord written (obviously not a half dim tho).
Click to expand...

True. Everything I'm saying is based on my college theory classes which I took 10 years ago, so, I have forgotten some of this stuff. I know for sure I forgot that 12 tone bartok stuff.. weird. But the theory classes I took were strictly classical theory, so there, an Xdim chord is 1, b3, b5, and any 7th chord was of a different classification. I remember that much for sure.. The jazz theory and composition classes are where I'm getting all this 7th and 9th business from, so you're right, in Jazz it doesn't matter so much.
 
#31
the first is correct. C Eb Gb Bbb. this is because in western harmony we generally write chords in thirds. i know, i know, Hindemuth wrote quaternary chords but you know what i meean....
 
#37
My 2cents (not neccessarily right):

My original training was like this

Xmb5 or Xm(b5) = 1,b3,b5

Xdim = 1,b3,b5,bb7 automaticaly a 4 note chord because.......

Xhalfdim = 1,b3,b5,b7 Which is why, years ago, I was perplexed the first time I saw Xdim7. It seemed redundant and I didn't know what they wanted the 7 to be (b7 or bb7) until I consulted the full written score. I've since seen many examples, over the years, of it written both Xdim and Xdim7 when the full, 4 note dim chord was meant and sometimes when Xdim simply meant a three note chord (according to the written score).

As far as the 9 or add9 argument: I was taught that add9 was used only when it was meant to omit the 7. Many times the word "add" isn't even written ( X(add9) is the same as X(9): not to be confused with X9 )

X9 = 1,3,5,b7,9..sooooo..X(add9) or X(9) = 1,3,5,9

Xm9 = 1,b3,5,b7,9..sooooo..Xm(add9) or Xm(9) = 1,b3,5,9

Xmaj9 = 1,3,5,7,9

X b9 = 1,3,5,b7,b9..sooooo..X(addb9) or X(b9) = 1,3,5,b9

Bottom line when written chords or symbols are used, you are somewhat at the mercy of the person/composer/transcriber that wrote them and what method they view as correct.

( wow....that might have been 4 cents worth :p )
 

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