How important is set flow when you see a band?

[hennessybass]

1. When you see a band and they have a lot of dead space between songs and then they are looking at each other asking which song to play next, does it lessen your opinion of them, even if you like the music?

Yes. This is the kind of stuff that separates professionals from armatures and hobbyists.

Some of that stuff will come with time and playing more. In the mean time, it's something to practice at.

I was in a band where we had "sister songs." If one song got played, the same song always got played after it. That way, no pause in the show. And you pick songs that work together, or maybe don't need tuning in between. Get creative with the set.

The whole band has got to be on the same page together and focused when on stage. One unit. A hand with (in your case) three fingers all functioning as one. The drummer should not have to have everyone turn around. You are all a few feet from each other, you finish a song together, and you all know what the next song is. You have to trust that your band mates are up there doing the same thing as you, so count the song and everyone will be ready to go.

Not sure what to say about the tuning thing. Heavier strings that don't go out of tune? Tune while you talk? Get a roadie? That's a rough one.

2. Our singer is the only guy that really “looks the part.” He has long hair, a giant beard and tattoos. He and I are both fatter dudes, not obese, but we definitely aren’t skinny. In a clique town like Austin I worry that we don’t look grungy or rock star enough. Our drummer spikes his hair with gel and has one of those stripe neck beards that looks super lame. I’m just wondering if our image is hurting us.

No. I would just say that you guys look fine. When in doubt, it's hard to go wrong with a black t-shirt / shirt and some black boots and jeans. Classic. Get a peacoat from navy surplus and you are set for winter too! Good place for boots too. Don't worry about being a "fatter dude." I would say just keep an eye on the drummer and make sure it doesn't turn into an over the top "costume." Unless the drummer is that type of dude, then you might want to let him run wild!

Keep it real, ya know. Don't worry about the skinny hipsters or cool kids. Keep rockin and let your heavy-ass grooves melt some hipster face!

All IMO of course. Your video was pretty awesome. Not a HUGE fan of your genre, but you guys rocked it... and that's the key. Good music. Listening to your recordings right now!

 

[hennessybass]

Work on learning how to be efficient.

There is an awesome Greatful Dead concert where they are taking a LONG, LONG time in-between songs. Standard stuff for them.

Bob Weir gets on the mic and says something along the lines of... "You may have notices that it takes us a long time in between songs. Well, that's because we are grossly inefficient." Then you get another 30 seconds of silence before they rock it.

 

[DiabolusInMusic]

If you get the chance to go see Kings-X do it. That's the way everyone should do every show IMO.

Don't rub it in... they have not been near my market since I was too young for bars (and was not into King's X at the time).

In regards to your question, it is extremely important OP and it looks amateurish with stops. Also, if you can run songs seamlessly into each other, it will blow the average bar patrons mind, they will think your a musical genius when really you just follow the circle of 5ths. On that note, arrange your sets around the circle of 5ths, the transitions will work soooo much better. 4ths works too, but that's for jazz cats

 

[mancefine]

Thanks guys, and thanks for all the compliments on the tunes!

 

[JakeF]

Wanted to drop my .02 cents.

1. Yes. It is a "SHOW". One thing I have been beating into my bass player is we are a SHOW in the same way as a television show, the person only has to click on their remote to ignore us. On top of that seeing our show is more inconvenient than watching television on your couch, we have to make sure it is excellent. My new band only stops to talk to the audience every 4-6 songs (or until something explodes ). When we talk we go for entertainment value featuring insult comedy between the bass player and I, as well as a few musical jokes in the show as well. I take 3 guitars and if you need to retune swap instruments on the fly. We connect our songs through key changes done on the fly as well, with a little theory this is not hard, as a poster mentioned regarding jazz players earlier, this is a deadly weapon with a busy band.

2. Image. Don't worry about it. You can be bland (grunge era), from outer space (P-funk, Kiss, GAGA, Bowie etc.), cross-dressing (more than we can list) or from down home (Country), what matters is that you entertain the audience. People get the image thing backwards. YOUR image is what people will associate with you and your show. Your image will NOT bring people too the show.

Remember. the audience must go on a non-stop emotional journey with you. If you are in front of a PA no one is going to stop watching the show cause of your looks.

btw: I think you may have a career ahead of you. I really like your stuff and it looks like you have a lot going on.

 

[Joedog]

Have a tee shirt made made that says "shut up and play!"

 

[mellowinman]

As an audience member, I could give a cold crap about set flow, but as a band member, I will hurt you if you do anything to ruin it.

It's very important to your overall audience, and the people who are judging whether you will play there again.

 

[the yeti]

There is an awesome Greatful Dead concert...

is that really even posible?

 

[10cc]

Set flow I wouldn't think has anything to do with anything really in the case of your band "making it".

In a town like Austin (live music capital of the world also home of SXSW) there is a very thriving and diverse music scene. You guys are just in the wrong town.

 

[Lowest End]

The way you practice is the way you play.

If you guys have gotten into a routine of dead air and fiddling around between songs, it won't fix itself. You have to make a concerted effort in rehearsal.

At rehearsal, identify spots on the set lists where the imperative is: NO DEAD AIR BETWEEN THESE SONGS. Start with maybe one or two segues.

Make it happen in rehearsal. Do it repeatedly until everyone gets their head around it and it becomes the norm.

Take it to the stage.

The way you practice is the way you play.

This, a thousand times. Run the set as you're going to perform it. Identify the songs that will run into each other and rehearse them that way. My band usually does songs either in groups of 2 with short (under 30 second) breaks after, or groups of 3 with slightly longer (45 seconds or so). You need a chance to identify the band, talk to the crowd a little, point out merch, take a drink, tune, etc. But if you have a 40 minute set and waste 6-7 minutes with dead air, that's 1-2 songs you could have played.

An example. I saw Fear Factory last summer. The tour was 3 bands, and there were about 4 local openers. The locals wasted so much time babbling and tuning and whatever that there was no flow at all. They weren't bad at all musically, but man. Wasted time galore. The first of the touring bands came up. I didn't know who they were at all, in fact I mistakenly assumed they were local. But they got up and played a set. No wasted time. Song-song-song-quickbreak-song-song-song etc. It was immediately obvious that they were professionals, not amateurs.

Be the professionals.

 

[Major Softie]

Everyone here seems to be on the same page and giving you good advice, but here's a philosophy for you to keep in mind: 5 seconds is an eternity to not be addressing the audience. You can have long periods without music and still have a great show, but only if you have someone who's great at filling that time. You can have the audience completely wrapped up in your performance, and it only takes 5 seconds of not paying attention to them for them to lose interest and turn and talk to each other; then you are starting over and have to work to bring them back in. 1000 times better if you never let them go from beginning of the set to the end.

The entire set is a performance.

 

[xUptheIronsx]

as many have mentioned, practice the in between song flow at home.

I play bass in an original thrash/crossover band and drums in a surf/post-punk band.

Both bands will write in "crowd interaction" or "right into" between the songs on the set list so that we remember. We plan the pacing of those interactions by the flow of the songs. Some songs end well to lead into a small time of crowd interaction, and some lead right into each other as well.

In the crossover band, many times the set flow will be dictated by the audience involvement. If there is good interaction/banter/heckling going on, we will extend the "crowd interaction" part. Sometimes we will even alter the song list of someone requests something, but it is still done in a fashion that makes it seem like the crowd is part of it. We try to never leave the crowd "uninvolved". Many times, we will know what the crowd at a certain venue will be like, so we know whether it is going to be a "blow thru the set and go" show (like at a 'scenster' club), or a "many breaks to interact with the crowd show" (like a house show or punk dive).

We also rehearse this way so that performance is no different than practice

 

[mancefine]

Set flow I wouldn't think has anything to do with anything really in the case of your band "making it".

In a town like Austin (live music capital of the world also home of SXSW) there is a very thriving and diverse music scene. You guys are just in the wrong town.

You have never been in an Austin band then. This is a very ignorant (not calling you ignorant, just your opinion) outlook on the scene here. It's great if you are a FAN of music, but everyone is in a band here. There are so many shows happening everywhere every night that it's really hard to get a recurring fanbase (which we are doing). People think of Austin and think it's a musicians dream, and while there are great aspects about being a musician here, what I just described kind of trumps everything. Trying to get a band off the ground here is a huge challenge for anyone.

I think how an audience perceives you does have to do with you "making it", and set flow plays into that.

 

[Eight_Stringer]

Aint it the truth, many think that back in the old days we had it good, compared to the difficult scene today. What is not known was how competitive it was, you had to be better than the other 100 bands to get a gig, sharpened us up no end. There is a reason why some muso's are better than others, much about how good the competition was, you had to best them. Song flow was one of the more direct ways to appear much better than you really are, ment in a nice way.

You need to be a complete muso and band, that is not just about how good you play. Regards.

 

[primusfan1989]

I’ve been having this debate with my bandmates for a while, and I just read a thread below that made me think to ask all my fellow TB’ers what you think.
I play in an all original Black Sabbath, Mastadon esque three piece out of Austin. We are pretty good, and usually get a pretty great crowd response. We are trying to “make it”, and by that I mean we are trying to get to the point where we are playing packed venues. To do that, in Austin at least, you have to catch the attention of the right promoters, and I’ve noticed most of the bands they book seem to have it all together- good stage show, lots of merch for sale, all dress like hipsters or tatted rockers, etc. I have two questions:
1. When you see a band and they have a lot of dead space between songs and then they are looking at each other asking which song to play next, does it lessen your opinion of them, even if you like the music? No matter how much we practice or if we print sets out, it seems almost impossible to get my guitarist or drummer to grasp the concept of set fluidity. We can be forgetful, and our guitarist seems to have to tune at least every two songs. He even had one of the Gibson futures where you push a button on the headstock to tune, but he just got an explorer, so it’s back to his tu-2 for now. He also says that if I or the drummer play while he’s tuning it, then his tuner won’t work. Even tuning aside, our drummer has to make sure everyone turns around and says “ready” before he will count in a song. It frustrates the crap out of me because set flow is a pretty simple concept, and we seem to just not get it. I just wonder if this small flaw makes us look unprofessional to the right people.
2. Our singer is the only guy that really “looks the part.” He has long hair, a giant beard and tattoos. He and I are both fatter dudes, not obese, but we definitely aren’t skinny. In a clique town like Austin I worry that we don’t look grungy or rock star enough. Our drummer spikes his hair with gel and has one of those stripe neck beards that looks super lame. I’m just wondering if our image is hurting us. If anyone wants to see or hear us for reference,
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Thanks for the feedback!

I believe set flow is important but I don't really think less of a bands set if its not flowing. That being said, If the set doesn't flow I find myself tuning out. It just wouldn't catch my attention. Even if the music was great, I'll watch one song, maybe two, but after the third song with long breaks between songs id prolly go out for a cig or something. I find its important to keep the momentum going because once there is dead air, people lose interest
As far as your drummers style choice, who cares? If he's a good drummer it shouldn't matter

 

[Lobster11]

There is an awesome Greatful Dead concert where they are taking a LONG, LONG time in-between songs. Standard stuff for them.

Bob Weir gets on the mic and says something along the lines of... "You may have notices that it takes us a long time in between songs. Well, that's because we are grossly inefficient." Then you get another 30 seconds of silence before they rock it.

The Grateful Dead were notorious for long pauses between songs -- especially during the first sets of their shows -- during which they tuned or discussed the next song selection, and they were often criticized as being "unprofessional" in this regard. IMO, though, this was a feature rather than a bug, because they had such a unique vibe: i.e., we're gonna play all night, we're in no hurry. Those pauses gave you time to digest what you had just heard, and build anticipation for whatever was coming next.

That said, almost nobody else could get away with that approach, and certainly not the kind of band OP describes. I don't think you need to have fancy seques from song to song, but you want to start each song within a few seconds of the end of the previous one. And the way to learn to do that is to practice it, just like anything else.

 

[the yeti]

The Grateful Dead were notorious for long pauses between songs -- especially during the first sets of their shows -- during which they tuned or discussed the next song selection, and they were often criticized as being "unprofessional" in this regard. IMO, though, this was a feature rather than a bug, because they had such a unique vibe: i.e., we're gonna play all night, we're in no hurry. Those pauses gave you time to digest what you had just heard, and build anticipation for whatever was coming next.

That said, almost nobody else could get away with that approach, and certainly not the kind of band OP describes. I don't think you need to have fancy seques from song to song, but you want to start each song within a few seconds of the end of the previous one. And the way to learn to do that is to practice it, just like anything else.

all true, but earlier joke aside, you're talking about the exception. i think it would be a ridiculously poor choice for a heavyish band like the op's to emulate that. also, they haven't played a show in over 20 years. who knows how that "whatever man" bit would play in todays market.

added emphasis to the part i quoted but didn't read. sometimes i'm solo stupid.

 

[10cc]

You have never been in an Austin band then. This is a very ignorant (not calling you ignorant, just your opinion) outlook on the scene here. It's great if you are a FAN of music, but everyone is in a band here. There are so many shows happening everywhere every night that it's really hard to get a recurring fanbase (which we are doing). People think of Austin and think it's a musicians dream, and while there are great aspects about being a musician here, what I just described kind of trumps everything. Trying to get a band off the ground here is a huge challenge for anyone.

I think how an audience perceives you does have to do with you "making it", and set flow plays into that.

Athens GA is much like Austin in more ways to none as far as music. What I'm saying is you guys need not worry about set flow and focus on the more important matters that will eventually get you the nod or not from the industry. Good luck.

If you are in wonders as to what the hell I might be referring to you can hit me on a pm and I'd be glad to help out.

 

[the yeti]

you could have the drummer keep playing and morph the beat into the start of the next song. easy enough from here i know...

 

[aggrokragg]

It's definitely important to keep the energy up, especially at a hard rock/metal show. You need to keep the audience focused and rocking out. Just make sure you have a setlist, and know in between which songs your singer will take a short break to "work the crowd". Let your guitarist tune silently then, or just have him keep a 2nd guitar handy and swap it out while your singer is bantering.

Also, I'm really digging your guys sound! Reminds me of newer Scissorfight. Or a band that was near and dear to my Connecticut stoner rock heart, Cable.